EPISODE #330

Hey, builders. Before we jump into today's show, I need to know something. Are you and I connected on the socials? Because if we're not, we need to be. So connect with me. I'm on Facebook. Obinjackson. I am on Twitter.

Obin steps. I'm on LinkedIn. Obinjackson. Let's connect, and let's keep the conversation going. Now onto the show. You're listening to the School Leadership reimagine podcast, episode 3 30. How do builders like us make a dramatic difference in the lives of our students in spite of all the obstacles we face? How do you keep your vision for your school from being held hostage by resistant teachers, uncooperative parents, ridiculous district policies, or a lack of time, money, or resources?

If you're facing those challenges right now, here is where you'll find the answers, strategies, and actionable tips you need to overcome any obstacle you face. You don't have to wait to make a difference in the lives of the people you serve. You can turn your school into a success story right now with the people and resources you already have. Let's get started. Hey, builders.

Welcome to another episode of the School Leadership Reimagined podcast. 

I'm your host, Robyn Jackson, and today I want to talk to you about feedback. Now, I know we've been talking about feedback for the last few episodes, but today's going to be a little different.

You see, we. We spend a lot of time talking about how teachers ignore our feedb, but we're ignoring feedback, too. There. We're not. The. The teachers are not the only ones who are ignoring feedback. There's a lot of feedback that we are getting that we are ignoring. So today, instead of talking about how to give feedback, I want to talk to you about how to receive feedback like a builder.

So let's get started. I remember when I was an assistant principal and I was giving feedback to a teacher, and the more that I talked, the tighter she became. She turned red. You could tell she was annoyed. I'd say something, and she would, like, subtly, kind of just, you know, like that and like, you know, suck her teeth and roll her eyes. And, you know, I'll be honest. I was like, wait a minute, Now I'm giving great feedback. I'm doing it exactly the way that I was taught to do it.

I'd carefully scripted my feedback. I was right about what was happening in her classroom. So why is she giving me all this attitude? And so finally I stopped and I just. What's going on? Why? Why? What's what's happening here What, what am I missing? And she said, you just got here. You, you don't even know me. You don't know anything about me and you're giving me this feedback. And, and I was sitting there, was truly baffled. I said, why do I need to know you in order to give you great feedback? That, I mean, I saw what I saw in the classroom. I'm right.

Why is it that you're not getting it? And so we both walked out of that conversation unsatisfied. I think now about that conversation. I've thought, given that conversation a lot of thought since then because that teacher was giving me feedback. But I was just as resistant to her feedback as she was to mine. And if feedback is going to work in schools, it's got to be a two way street. So last week we did the four types of feedback conversation, course and so many the masterclass. There were so many epiphanies during that masterclass.

People were saying, oh my goodness, I realize now what I've been missing. Oh my goodness, this is going to be so much better. They could see it. They could see teachers getting that feedback and how it could change practice. But the way that we've been taught to give feedback often ignores that. And the way that we've been taught to give feedback makes feedback feel like it's a one conversation. I go into your classroom, I observe what's happening, I tell you my opinion about what's happening, and then it's your job to implement it.

That's not the way that feedback works.

When you are a builder, you recognize that feedback is always two way. And a lot of the times the feedback that we collect from teachers isn't really feedback. Let me explain. We have these climate surveys that happen at the end of the year and I can't tell you how many administrators I've talked to who hate those climate surveys. Because during the climate surveys, people, and it's usually an aggrieved few, but they sway the results. They use the climate survey as a weapon to get back at the administrator. Their comments say things that are hurtful to the administrator. Administrators are hurt when they get their climate surveys back or they're disappointed because the climate survey results are tepid at best.

And that's because the climate survey isn't a great form of feedback. It's at the end of the year you got a lot of people who are leaving and, and they want to burn the place down around them. You've got people who have been carrying things for so long and it's ballooned. Climate surveys are not great. It's a form of feedback. It's just not your best form of feedback. You should be collecting feedback all year long, and feedback is all around you. And I would say 70 to 80% of the feedback is not what teachers say, it's what teachers do.

So today I want to talk to you about three pieces of three ways that you can be getting feedback from your staff that, that you're probably not thinking about and ignoring. And I would encourage you to start collecting and acting on feedback the same way that you expect teachers to receive and act on feedback so that not only can you get better, but that your school culture begins to shift. All right, the first way you've heard me talk about before, and it's focus groups. I've talked about student focus groups. I haven't talked a lot about doing focus groups with staff. When I was an administrator, I would get staff together. I did student focus groups every month without fail with a staff. I probably did it every other month.

Sometimes I talk to a particular department. Sometimes I would randomly select staff. I tried to do it at lunch. I'd buy them lunch that day. I'd sit down and have conversations. Sometimes it's voluntary. So I was experimenting with a lot of different ways. And sitting down with staff and getting feedback from staff is always eye opening, because guaranteed, the thing you think they're going to say, they don't say.

They say a lot of stuff you don't realize. 

And a lot of the challenges, you know, we see staff facing challenges, we see staff struggling, and we project onto them our reasoning. They're overwhelmed. They're. You know, I remember I did a focus group with some staff members because I thought that they were overwhelmed with a lot of the district mandates that were happening and a lot of things that I was asking of them. And I felt like they were getting initiative fatigue. And so I wanted to find out. Well, in the focus group, none of that was the issue.

You know, what was the issue? It was that some staff members were shirking their cafeteria duties and nobody was doing anything about them. That was why the culture was starting to shift. All of the things that I projected on the staff members, none of those things were the issue. I was trying to say that didn't matter. It's not that it didn't matter, but that's not what was driving the change in my culture, was driving the change in my culture was cafeteria duty, which never even occurred to me. And so we tightened up accountability around Cafeteria duty and all of a sudden our culture shifted. So I guarantee when you sit down and do staff focus groups that you will find that your staff is going to tell you or reveal things to you that you just never, it just never even occurred to you.

And so it's a great form of feedback. I recommend you do them at least bimonthly every other month, but preferably monthly. And sometimes make them voluntary because people have stuff they want to say, but sometimes make them random because there are a lot of people who won't volunteer for focus group but will come if invited and share really interesting things. You can do it by department, you can do it by team, you can do it random, you know, a collected group of people. You can do it before school, after school, buy them lunch, do it on a PD day. But I strongly recommend that you spend time talking to teachers. Now related to that is doing staff one on ones. So those of you who are in BU and in the collective, you know, we've got a whole masterclass and a group of tools around conducting one on ones.

And so many people have told me that they have used that and gotten incredible insight by just sitting down and doing one on ones with staff. Great way to get feedback. Great way to reinforce your vision, mission and core values. Most people never do it and you are missing a huge boost to your culture, to your understanding of your teachers when you're not sitting down and talking with teachers in some way. Focus groups one on ones exit interviews are another one. We have resources for how to do all of that so you don't to figure it out. Everything you need to do for that is in the collective. For those of you all who are in BU in the collective and just go get the masterclass, get the materials, start putting doing a series of meetings with teachers, focus groups one on ones exit interviews.

So powerful for receiving honest feedback that can help help you understand what's going on in your culture, help you reach and connect with your teachers better, help give you information about what it is you need to do. So rather than guessing, the first thing you should be doing is sitting down and seeking feedback from teachers. And those structures help you get feedback from teachers that's honest without being hurtful. That helps you get feedback from teachers in a way that recognizes the power dynamic but doesn't let the power dynamic interfere with your getting feedb helps you get feedback from teachers you can actually use. Okay, so that's the first way talk to your teachers. Now the second way that you can get and collect feedback from teachers this one we hardly ever do.

Behavior is feedback. 

Let's say I give teachers feedback about their classrooms. And the next time I go in their classrooms and they're not doing what I want them to do, I get annoyed. And I make that all about the teacher. But I have a nickel in that quarter, and that teacher is giving me feedback on the quality of the feedback that I gave to that teacher. That teacher's giving me feedback on the quality of support that I'm providing for that teacher. That teacher's giving me feedback on the quality of the accountability that I am providing for that teacher. And the culture that we're building together. Teachers, behavior is feedback. And when you start looking at their behavior as feedback, you stop taking it personally.

I can't tell you how freeing this is. So many administrators get mad at teachers, right? They. You know, I was talking to. I was doing something the other day, a workshop the other day, and one of the administrators said something so snarky about her staff. I was kind of shocked that she would say it. But she's gotten to the point where she is just done, and she doesn't even know it yet. And she's talking about certain staff members in ways that.

That are. That are dismissive and unkind and unproductive. And what she doesn't realize is that she is a part of that. You know, it's not that I'm asking her to take ownership over the behavior of other people, but you, as the builder in the building, set the culture. You set the temperature for what's happening. So if your culture is jacked up, up, some of that responsibility lies with you. Now, you might be saying, yeah, no, Robyn, I inherited this culture. You might have, but you can shift culture.

We talk about that a lot. Those of you in bu, we do the culture architecture where you see how. How. How you can shift culture. You can do that. You don't have to live with the culture that you have. But a lot of us have never been taught to do that. And so we're only left with the option of blaming teachers.

But when you see teachers resisting you, when you see teachers ignoring you, when you see the. The PLC team not implementing the protocol that. That you want them to implement, that is feedback. I remember I. I was. I was. I wanted to help our team leaders give teachers better feedback, right? So I was still in the schools and as an administrator and the team leaders and the department chairs actually conducted observations of teachers in our district. And so I was trying to help them to start doing more walkthroughs.

And so I created what I thought was a beautiful walkthrough, walkthrough instrument. I mean, this thing. And I gave them two versions, right? I was just like, okay, you can do the checklist version. And it was so good that when I shared it with the other administrators, my colleagues, they were like, oh, I need a copy of that. It was based on our observation instrument. It used great language, it looked at the keys of instruction. I mean, it was beautiful.

I thought it was.

And I had spent a lot of time working on it. So I handed it out to the team leaders and the department chairs, and I said, when you do walkthroughs, here's the walkthrough instrument. And they did not applaud. They did not say, oh, my goodness, Robyn, this is brilliant. You are brilliant. Instead, they looked at and they were like, are you serious? And I'll be honest, I got my feelings hurt.

I. I was a little offended. So what do you mean? I. Who you mean am. I spent a lot of time working on this. And by the way, I know what I'm talking about. I have been to the trainings, I have studied the instrument, I've unpacked the instrument, and y' all just don't want to do walkthroughs. And finally, one of the team leaders came to me after the meeting and she said, I need to talk to you about my instrument.

And immediately I got my backup because that's my instrument. What are you talking about? And, and what was worse is that other colleagues had told me what. I mean, how, you know, how amazing it was. So I didn't really want to hear it, I'll be honest. And she said, what? Have some questions. And I said, okay, and I'm bracing for, you know, war.

And she says, if I leave this in a teacher's classroom and I don't check off every box, the teacher is going to be upset. And I was like, no, I mean, that's not true. I mean, you don't. You can't observe everything in a five minute walkthrough. So you just check off the things you observe. Teachers will know that. And she goes, no, because I don't know that. I looked at that instrument and that was the first thought that occurred to me.

So I know the teachers. It's going to occur to teachers, too. And I'm so busy defending the instrument that I am not hearing her. I'm not hearing her feedback. So I'm ashamed to admit I just defended the instrument. I never heard it. It wasn't until after she left that I looked at the instrument and I could start to see her point. And so I changed the instrument.

And then I called her back in and I said, you know, I couldn't hear it in the meeting, but after the meeting, I could see your point. And so what do you think about this one? And she looked at it and she was like, this is a lot better. I could use this. And I sat down with the department chairs and the team leaders, and I said, I've gotten some feedback on the instrument, and so here's how I've changed it. And everybody in the room just breathed a sigh of relief. And all of a sudden they all went from, are you serious? We're gonna have to use this to, okay, good.

I can do this. And they immediately started using it and giving teachers feedback and walkthroughs and coming to me and talking to me about the difference that the walkthroughs were making.

When people resist you, that is feedback. 

Behavior is feedback. And instead of reacting to that, that pushback, take a step back. Try not to take it personally. It is hard. Right? So here's what I recommend. Give yourself. I have a friend of mine, she always says, how long we gonna cry about this? We'll give ourselves 30 minutes, an hour, a day. How long you need to cry about it before we can figure out what we're gonna do about it? So if you need to give yourself 15 minutes to just be in your feelings, you do that. Go buy yourself a coffee, sit down, and just go ahead, be in your feelings. At the end of that 15 minutes, get up and look at the feedback that their behavior is giving you.

Right? Non implementation is not defiance. It's data. And if you start paying attention to your staff, to what they're embracing, to what they're not embracing, to where they're complaining it. If you can get beyond yourself and look at that behavior, it's important data. I always say people tell you exactly what they need when they're complaining. If you can listen to their complaints. Hey, builders, real quick.

Before we get on with the rest of the episode, I want to talk to you about the 100% collective. If you are interested in becoming a builder and developing that 100% mindset, then the 100% percent collective is for you. Not only do we have monthly masterclasses, live master classes, where I show you how to take some work that you are already doing, but do it like a builder. Do it in a way that is more effective, more efficient, in a way that takes the work and stops it from being drudgery and makes it actually something that feels meaningful, that moves you forward. We also have done for you toolboxes with all the tools you need to be able to implement. And we have step by step playbooks that lay out the entire process for you so you don't have to even think about it. You just take the playbook and you can implement it right away in your schools. And we have a supportive community.

So this is a safe place where you can bring your challenges.

And there are other people, other builders just like you who are encouraging you, who are applauding you when you win, and who are giving you their experiences as well so that you can learn from each other. If you are tired of just kind of going through and doing the work the way you've always been doing it, and you're ready to stop being a leader and to start building something amazing, the 100% collective is where you need to be. Join us@brewershipuniversity.com community now. Back with the program. So whenever we're doing like, Will Driver work and you know, with principals and they're, you know, they're like, but this teacher, she doesn't want to. No, no, no, no. Pay attention to what the teacher's telling you.

You can get beyond your feelings and pay attention to what the teacher's telling you. The teacher is giving you keys to the kingdom. The teacher's telling you exactly how to move them. What we do is we get defensive and then we try to, then we try to appease them. Teachers are saying, we need more time. We don't have enough time. First of all, we're like, what do you mean you need more time? You know, using the time you have, right?

So some of us react that way and others of us say, okay, I hear you. You're right, you don't have enough time. Here's an extra 15 minutes I'll release you from, you know, I don't know, this staff meeting so you could have more time to work on your stuff. And then half the people don't work on their stuff. They go home early. Because what they needed was not more time, not at least in that way. 30 minutes was not going to do it. They needed a different kind of support.

And if you listen and dig, you can figure out what that means. I'll tell you one more story. I was working in a school at this point. I was a consultant and I was working with a group of schools who were the lowest performing schools in a district. I had the five lowest performing schools in a district and I was trying to help them implement rigorous instruction. And so I was doing what I call like office hours with teachers. So I'd already taught them some strategies for unit planning. And then I was doing office hours with teachers who were trying to plan their unit.

And there was one teacher that the district, I mean, not the district, the school principal made meet with me. He didn't want to meet with me. He didn't think I could do any good for him. And he came in with an attitude and the me and me wanted to just be like, listen, I've seen your classroom, you need my help. But if you don't want my help, fine, go back to your little classroom and teach a little stupid lessons and you just watch kids fail. Because I don't have to. You don't have to be here, and I don't have to be here. And so I actually said it to him.

I said, listen, you know, I'm picking up from you, you don't want to be here, you don't have to be here. And he goes, actually, I do. My principal is making this a part of my, my, he's on some sort of improvement plan. So actually I do have to be here. And then something about that broke me. Something about that broke through my defenses. And I just started looking at his behavior, not as offensive to me because he didn't know me, right? Like, why am I getting offended?

Why am I getting offended?

That doesn't make any sense, right? So ego in check and I start paying attention. I said, okay, well, since you have to be here, what do we need? He said, he opened up his briefcase. He had one of old fashioned leather briefcases. And he pulled out this stack of papers and he dropped it on my desk, right? And he goes, I got six weeks to teach all of this.

Now, I could have been offended again the way he kind of threw it at me and is. But I'm paying attention. This is a guy who is already in trouble. This is a guy who is being. Has a lot of expectations on him. This is a guy who can't figure out how to meet those expectations. That's good feedback. And so I said, all right, let's dive in.

And he looked at me like, you're not going to be able to help. And I said, okay, now. And I started asking questions and we started looking through it and then, and after a while he started seeing how he could do it. And I said, okay, we gotta, let's. Let's start with need to nose and nice to knows you're not gonna get through all of this in the next six weeks. Let's go to need to nose and eyes to nose. And I showed him how to figure that out. And we went through and we basically did a mini five and five outs for him.

And within 30 minutes, his whole attitude changed. He was like, okay, I can do this. If I had let my personal reaction to him ruled the conversation, I would have judged him. I would have, I would have checked out. I would have, you know, the two of us would have been in there because we had to be there. But by looking at his behavior and looking at the data from his behavior and taking that in, that was able to help him. Now, I'm not saying allow yourself to be disrespected. I mean, listen, you know, you're not a punching boy.

But what I am saying is that you, if you can get out of your feelings and look at the data that the behavior is giving you, people will tell you what they need. And if you practice listening for the data instead of reacting to the behavior, then you can help people and you won't take it personally.

I always say be curious instead of furious. 

And if you can practice doing that, you will get so much feedback that makes you better, that makes your work easier, that makes you more effective. But you got to get out of your feelings and you got to start looking at behaviors data. Okay? So number one, if you want to get better at hearing feedback, you got to go get it. And the way you go get it, focus groups, listening sessions, one on ones, exit interviews, putting the structures in place to spend time listening to your teachers.

Not just waiting for the end of the year survey. Not just waiting. What do y' all think? Not just waiting for people to speak up in staff meeting, but spending time intentionally seeking feedback from your teachers. Number two, you also need to pay attention to their behavior. Not to judge, not to be offended, but so that you can look for what people are telling you. Their behavior is data. Okay?

Now the third place to get feedback, you're not going to like to hear this. Your results. You see, if you are doing things the way that you're supposed to be doing them, but you are not getting results, that is feedback. It doesn't mean that you're failing. It just means that people are telling you that that way isn't working. You know, a lot of people come to Buildership University or Collective and they come and because they are not getting the. They're working really hard, but they're not seeing Results. Working hard and not seeing results is feedback.

It's telling you that what you're doing isn't effective and you need to do something different. What most of us do is we continue to force something through even though we're not getting the results. If you are tired of being a failing school or you're tired of being an okay school or a good school because you want to be a great school and you keep doing the same things over and over again, that's feedback. And what your results are telling you is that the things that you're doing that you're spending so much time doing, if they're not giving you the results, that's feedback. That's telling you you need to do something else. But we're not trained to think that way, right? So let's, let's, let's think about this. And you know, our teachers need this too, right?

Because as teachers they often get test scores back and either it hurts their feelings, they take it personally, they blame kids, they dismiss it, they blame the district, but they don't look for the feedback in the results. What are the results telling you? Those of you who are doing PLCs right now and you want teachers to start paying attention to the data and looking for results, well, you gotta model that you need to do the same thing. And there's some school wide data that you have right now and you're going through, you're circling the red things and you're trying to figure out, but you're putting all of that on the teachers and you're not thinking about what you need to be doing as a school. You see, when you're looking at the data, it's not just what the kids need, it's not what the teachers need to be doing more. It's also telling you what your teachers need. So people in BU you all know this. This is your builder's blueprint.

This is why every 90 days we do, we stop and we take some time and we reflect on where we are. And we are looking at the micro data, but we're also looking at macro data, right? So the easiest way for you to start is for you. If you don't, if you're not bu, not access to the builder's blueprint, the easiest way for you to start is to say what is my vision, mission and core values? And are we making steady progress towards our vision? Are we doing work in a way that is a fulfillment of our mission and is what we're doing in alignment of our core values? If you Stopped. And you took some time and stepped back and just reflected on that. And you did that on a regular basis. 

That feedback can help you make your school better. 

Here's the kind of discoveries you'll find. You'll find that, hey, we're doing a lot of work over here and it's not making a difference, so we need to stop. Oh, we're doing this thing over here. We don't even think about it anymore. But it's quietly making a difference for kids. We probably should do more of this. We're working hard, we're seeing some student results, but the way we're getting those results aren't sustainable. They're not alignment in alignment with our mission. So we need to figure out how to continue to get these results, but do it in a way that's more in alignment with our mission. We're doing this over here. But you know, the real problem is that the reason that this issue is showing up is because this core value has stopped being non negotiable. So when you start doing that, you start getting feedback about how you're progressing towards your vision, mission and core values. And you can make course corrections. So just to recap, if you want to get better at listening and getting and receiving feedback, the three things you need to do.

Number one, you need to deliberately seek feedback. Teacher focus groups. One, on ones with teachers, exit interviews. Those are ways to deliberately seek meaningful feedback from teachers and then listen, take it in and make adjustments. Number two, teachers behavior is feedback. Instead of blaming the teacher and instead of getting upset when a teacher doesn't do what you want them to do, pay attention to the feedback it's giving you. Defiance is data. And so you want to be looking at what's happening and instead of getting furious, get curious because that's going to get you to the root of the problem and that will help you to start making changes in your culture.

And then third, look at your results. Are the re. What story are your results telling you? Don't look at data, just at that micro level. Oh, you know, our kids have gone down six points in reading comprehension, but their math scores are up five points. I mean, okay, that's interesting, but it's not feedback yet, it's information. Turn the that information into feedback by saying, what is this telling us about how well we are making progress towards our 100% vision, how on mission is our work and how aligned is our work to our core values? Then use that feedback to make your culture better.

See, here's the thing. We all want teachers to be more receptive to our feedback. But your. Your ability to give great feedback that gets received and implemented is in some way tied to your ability to receive feedback and use it yourself. You can't expect somebody else to take your feedback and implement it while you ignore all of the feedback that you're getting and do what you want to do anyway. It works both ways. As leaders, we are trained to make feedback a one way street. I give the feedback because I'm the leader.

You take the feedback and your job is to implement it.

But builders know that feedback is a two way street. And if you want better feedback in your school, you ought to start with you and start listening, collecting feedback, acting on that feedback so that you can use the feedback to make your school better. Like a builder. I'll talk to you next time. Hey, if you're ready to get started being a builder right away, then I want to invite you to join us at Buildership University. It's our exclusive online community for builders just like you, where you'll be able to get the exact training that you need to turn your school into a success story. Right now, with the people and resources you already have inside, you'll find our best online courses, live trainings with me, tons of resources, templates and exemplars, and monthly live office hours with me where you can ask me anything and get my help on whatever challenge you're facing right now.

If you're tired of hitting obstacle after obstacle and you're sick of tiny little incremental gains each year, if you're ready to make a dramatic difference in your school right now, then you need to join Buildership University. Just go to buildershipuniversity.com and get started writing your school success story today. Hey, it's Robyn here and I want to thank you for listening to today's episode. Now, if you have a question about today's episode or you just want to keep the conversation going, did you know that we had a school leadership reimagined Facebook group? All you need to do is go to Facebook, join the school leadership reimagined Facebook group. Now, there are going to be a couple of questions that we ask at the beginning because we want to protect this group and make sure that we don't have any trolls come in and that it really is for people who are principals, assistant principals, district administrators. So make sure you answer those questions or you won't get in. But then we can keep the conversation going.

Plus, we do a lot of great bonus content. I'm in there every single weekday. So if you have a question or comment about the episode, let's continue the conversation. Join us at the School Leadership Reimagined Facebook group, and I'll talk to you next time.