EPISODE #282

Here’s why some teachers ignore your feedback

You're listening to the school leadership reimagined podcast episode 282. 

Hey builders, before we begin today's episode, I want to tell you about something really, really cool we have coming up. It's called the fail safe feedback workshop, and it's happening October 27 through 29, 2024. During the workshop, this virtual workshop, we're going to get together for 90 minutes every single day to revamp how you give feedback and help you give feedback to teachers that not only will teachers not ignore, but they'll actually welcome, embrace and implement.

Over the course of three days, we are going to learn how to quickly diagnose the root cause of a teacher's practice. We're going to go in deep about how to use micro slicing so that you can do it within five to seven minutes rather than taking 30 minutes and you still don't know what to say to a teacher or what's wrong or what's working in a teacher's classroom. And then we're also going to show you how to give teachers the feedback that they need in a way that they can actually hear it.

So you'll never worry again about what to say to a teacher or you'll never have to struggle through one of those awkward feedback conversations to know exactly what to say and how to say it. And then we're going to show you how to follow up to make sure that your feedback sticks. Now normally this is only available to people inside of BU, but so many people have been asking for this workshop that we've made a few tickets available to non-BU members.

And if you want one of those tickets, all you need to do is go to buildershipuniversity.com slash feedback. That's buildershipuniversity.com slash feedback. Now we only have a few tickets available to non-BU members.

So if you go to that website and you don't see anything there, then all the tickets are gone. So you need to hurry up and grab your ticket today at buildershipuniversity.com slash feedback. Now on with the show.

How do builders like us make a dramatic difference in the lives of our students in spite of all the obstacles we face? How do you keep your vision for your school from being held hostage by resistant teachers, uncooperative parents, ridiculous district policies, or a lack of time, money, or resources? If you're facing those challenges right now, here's where you'll find the answers, strategies, and actionable tips you need to overcome any obstacle you face. You don't have to wait to make a difference in the lives of the people you serve.

You can turn your school into a success story right now with the people and resources you already have. Let's get started. Hey builders.

Welcome to another episode of the School Leadership Reimagined podcast.

I'm your host, Robyn Jackson, and today we're going to talk about why some teachers ignore your feedback. Now we've all had this happen to us.

We have sat down with a teacher, we have given them feedback about something they need to address or correct or refine in their teaching practice. And sometimes the teachers sit there and they nod their heads and sometimes they may even ask a few questions or push back a little bit. Some of them sit and take it.

Sometimes you even get a blank stare. 

I hate that one, but it happens. But you give them the feedback, you give them the write-up, and then a few weeks later you visit their classroom, nothing has changed.

It is so frustrating when that happens, when you see the same thing happening, the same thing you just addressed in your feedback conversation. Well, today I want to talk about why that happens and why our feedback often gets ignored by teachers, or at least if not ignored, it doesn't get implemented. And the truth is, it's not your fault and it's not the teacher's fault.

You see, it's how we were trained. We were told to give feedback in a specific way and the very training we received about how to give teachers feedback is the very thing that is making our feedback so easy to ignore. And it's not the teacher's fault either.

It's not that the teachers don't want to get better or they're just being resistant or obstinate or all the things that we often accuse teachers of being. It's not their fault either. You see, if we don't give them feedback in a way that they can hear it, they can't implement it.

So today we're going to talk about three things that make your feedback easy to ignore. And then we're going to talk about how to give feedback like a builder. All right, so let's dive in.

So the first reason that our feedback is so easy to ignore is something that I call educator ease, right? It's the language we were taught to use as educators. And I have to be honest with you, can I do that? Can I share something that may not be popular? The older I get, the more impatient I get with educator ease. I hear a lot of administrators using the language that we were trained to use, that we were told to use in ways that make me feel like they're hiding behind the language, in ways that almost make me feel like they don't really know what they're talking about.

And so I really have to work with myself when I hear people spouting all these things, because when I ask, okay, what does that mean? People struggle to answer, right? And that's the problem with educator ease. Yes, we have a common language. It's great that we have a common language, but a lot of times we don't check to make sure that we have a common understanding of the language.

I'll throw out some words, best practice, rigor, routines, checking for understanding. 

These are all terms of art. And so I'm not mad at the terms themselves, but I do believe that how we use those terms, how we throw them about can be reckless at times.

Because when you say rigor, you mean one thing, but when people hear rigor, they may think something else. In fact, I remember I used to teach workshops on rigor and I would always ask teachers, what is rigor? And if there were 20 teachers in the room, I would get 20 different answers. It's one of those terms where everybody thinks they know what it means, and they really don't.

And so when you are using educator ease in your feedback, you can often make your feedback easy to ignore. And it's not even that the teacher's ignoring it. It's just that what you're saying and what they're hearing may be two different things.

So you might say, hey, listen, you need to do more checking for understanding. And then the teacher goes about and they think they're doing checking for understanding and you go in a classroom, but you don't see what you believe to be checking for understanding. And so you're frustrated because the teacher isn't implementing your feedback when in fact the teacher is implementing your feedback.

So why do we do this? Why do we use the educator ease? Well, part of it is our training. Part of it is the instrument. Part of it is, I think, that we think that if we don't use those terms, then our feedback doesn't sound as official when the opposite is actually true.

So here's the way you get around it, right? You're not going to reform using that in a day. And a lot of times you may be required to use that kind of language because of the way that your observation system is set up. So I'm not saying to stop using the language, but I am saying that when you find yourself using educator ease, you need to stop and say, what I mean by that is.

So if you say, I'd like to see more rigor in your lessons. And what I mean by that is, I want to see more ambiguity. Instead of students just, you know, you're asking questions and then students giving you the quote unquote right answer, what I'd like to see you play around a little bit with some of the ambiguity of the topics and teach students how to navigate the ambiguity where there isn't a single right answer or even to incorporate a little bit more complexity in it where there may be multiple right answers so that, or multiple pathways to the right answers so that students can begin to learn how to think in more rigorous ways.

So notice now, I'm not just saying rigor, I'm talking specifically about ambiguity and complexity. I define those terms. And now the teacher and I have a greater chance of having a shared understanding.

Instead of just saying, hey, you need to do more checking for understanding, give the teacher specific instances in the lesson where they moved on without checking in with kids first to make sure they understand. A lot of teachers hear checking for understanding and say, does that make sense? I mean, I do that. That's one of my verbal tics.

Does that make sense? 

And everybody kind of nods, and they think that's checking for understanding. So helping the teacher understand what you mean by that. Do you mean asking a particular question where students have to use the information that you just gave them in order to come up with the answer to see if students can use the information? That's an example of what I mean by checking for understanding.

So instead of just giving teachers educator ease, ask them or use the term, go ahead, but then define that term for teachers in a way that helps the teachers understand what you mean by that term so that you and the teacher are more likely to have a shared understanding. And with that shared understanding, you can actually, when you go into the classroom, see what you're talking about or see the teacher attempting what you're talking about. Okay, so that's the first thing, educator ease.

The second reason that a lot of teachers ignore our feedback is that our feedback is too much. I mean, we give teachers laundry lists of feedback, and again, not our fault. We are trained to do this, first of all, but we also are given feedback instruments that have domains and subdomains and sub-subdomains, and we are expected to give teachers feedback on all aspects of their lesson.

And when we do that, we, you know, let's say I give a teacher five things that they need to think about before I come into their classroom again. Well, one of three things is going to happen. Either the five things I give the teacher are so overwhelming that the teacher just says, forget it, I'm doomed, and they don't try anything, or the teacher will cherry pick the things that they want to do based on what they want to do or what they feel they can do and not get to all five things, or the teacher's going to attempt to do all five things, but they won't be able to get all five things done well.

And so you'll go back into the classroom, and if the teacher's done nothing, you're frustrated. If the teacher's cherry picked, you feel like you have to give them credit for what they did do, but then you're still, you know, looking for the stuff that you told them, the other stuff you told them to do. Or if they try to do everything, they, a lot of times the class gets worse because they're trying to do too much and trying to get good at too much too fast.

So giving teachers a laundry list creates a situation where either they ignore your feedback outright, or in their attempts to implement your feedback, you don't see enough positive change in the classroom to justify, you know, the work and effort that you and the teacher put into giving and implementing the feedback. So too much feedback can make your feedback easy to ignore. It's hard to figure out if I have 10 things to do, what I'm supposed to do first, what is going to make the biggest difference? And that's where, that's why I love one thing feedback, because one thing feedback takes all those 10, 12 things on your evaluation instrument that you're giving teachers, you know, commentary about.

And it sifts through all of that and says, of all the things that I noticed, here is the root and here's the one thing that you need to focus on now that will immediately turn this lesson from ineffective to effective or will make this effective lesson even more effective. And if you do that, go through the laundry list, yes, but then make, create meaning, offer the teacher insight about what does that laundry list mean for them. Then you help the teacher.

Then your feedback is actually useful. 

Then a teacher can say, you know, yeah, I see that. If you just give the laundry list, you know, wake me up when you're done.

But when you take that, that, that list of things and you help me understand what this means for me as a teacher, how this impacts my practice and how my practice is impacting students. Now I'm interested. Now you have my attention.

And so rather than just kind of reciting the laundry list to teachers or doing what I see a lot of administrators doing is saying, you know, we recognize the laundry list is a problem. So we just pick a glow and a grow. Well, you know, again, don't get mad, but glows and grows have been so misused, right? OK, here's one thing that you did great.

And here's one thing that you need to work on. And a lot of times the glow has nothing to do with the grow. And so these are two pieces of random information.

What am I supposed to do with it? How does it how does it offer me insight into my practice or direction about what I should do next? And so a lot of times we're just. You know, we see a classroom and and the classroom is just a complete mess. And then we give a glow and a grow and a glow is like, well, you know, at least nobody got killed.

And then then we have this that then we can't even decide on one grow because there's so many things that need to be addressed. Well, then the glow and grow format isn't serving you. And yet that's what we're trying to do.

And we're trying to do that for everybody that works for some teachers. It doesn't work for others. You know, it works for everybody.

One thing, feedback, when you go in and you say, hey, these are all the things I saw. Here's what I think it means. And here's the impact that it's having on you and your students.

So here, if you focus on this, here's how your lesson can improve and grow and get better. Here's how you can take something that wasn't working and turn into something that is working. Now, that's feedback that teachers can use.

That's feedback that teachers can can can grow from and show improvement for one visit to the next. It becomes clear they can't unsee it and then they actually implement it. Okay.

So first thing, too much feedback. Sorry. First thing is that using Educator E, second thing is too much feedback.

The third thing that makes your feedback easy to ignore is when you don't have a call to action. So I've observed hundreds of feedback conversations. And the thing that that I think is kind of like, like problem number one is at the end of the feedback conversation, the administrator says, so, you know, there's your feedback.

There's your there's your glow and your grow. 

And I guess I'll see you in three months. But there's no call to action.There's nothing that you're asking the teacher to do before the next time you get into the classroom. So a lot of times we just give feedback to teachers and then we just hope, pray, maybe even expect them to implement it. But we never make those expectations clear.

You know, you can solve that in a way that's very clean and simple. If you give teachers one thing, feedback, you can say, so the next time I come into your classroom, here's what I'm going to be looking for. Here's what I expect to see.

Here's what I want you to do next. Just saying something very specific. This is what I want you to do with the feedback that I'm giving you makes your feedback more likely to be implemented.

It's not even that the teachers don't want to implement your feedback, but a lot of times we just give it to them and say, so, you know, there it is. They think, well, OK, great. They may try to implement it in a way that you can't even see.

They may take the feedback and say, thank God I survived another feedback conversation and put in a drawer with the other ones and continue to teach the way they've always taught. They may try to implement your feedback and get stuck. So if you don't give them a call to action, you are leaving their implementation up to chance.

Hey, it's Robyn here real quick. I just want to interrupt this episode for just a second, because if you are enjoying what you're hearing, then would you mind sharing this episode with somebody else? So all you need to do is just go to your phone. If you're listening to it on your phone or your podcast player, and then click the three dots next to this episode, and it'll give you the option to share the episode.

Now, if you do that, three things are going to happen. 

First, the person that you shared with is going to think you're a hero, especially if they're struggling with what we're talking about right now, they're going to love you. Secondly, you're going to feel good because you're going to get the word out about Buildership and start building this Buildership Nation.

And third, you will get my eternal gratitude because I really want to get this out to the world and you'd be helping me out. You'd be doing me a huge favor. So please share this episode with someone right now who's who's dealing with this same issue, someone you think would really benefit.

And now back to the show. A specific call to action, this is what I want you to do with the feedback, this is how we're going to follow up and getting some agreement around that helps make your feedback something that teachers will not and cannot ignore. You see, the way that we are trained to give feedback becomes a compliance issue.

We basically get into classrooms that we're told we need to get into because of a contract this many times for this many minutes with this particular instrument, this many post-observation and pre-observation conferences, a write up format that follows a very specific framework. And it becomes more about complying to the requirements of our district than it does about really supporting teachers. I get it.

I know that we all have requirements around how we do feedback. We have to get into classrooms so many times, but just because those requirements are there doesn't mean that we can't take the feedback conversation and process and turn it into something that's really meaningful for teachers. I am so tired of bad feedback.

You don't deserve it and your teachers definitely don't deserve it. Your teachers are there every single day in front of students, helping students learn and they're doing their best. And we owe it to them and to their students to give teachers feedback that they can actually use.

It's time to stop making teachers sit through these boring laundry list of teaching behaviors riddled with educator ease and we somehow call that feedback. Why not make, if we have to have the conversation anyway, why not make it a conversation that actually means something where people, both you and the teacher, walk out of that conversation glad that you have that conversation. So here's what builders do.

The first thing that builders do is we understand what the purpose of feedback is. It's not compliance. It's not even to make the teacher a better teacher.

The purpose of feedback is to go into the classroom and give the teacher insight about their practice that they would not otherwise get. You know, a lot of times we are blind about our own stuff or there are parts of us that we can't see. I can't see the back of my head unless I do some weird thing with the mirror.

But that's why I have good friends and colleagues and a husband who can, when I go out, they can check the back of my head and make sure that I don't go out looking crazy. That's what feedback is supposed to do for the teacher, right? So the first thing is that if your feedback is not offering a teacher insight, something that they may or may not have been able to see on their own, what's the point, right? So that's why I love One Thing Feedback because One Thing Feedback looks at the pattern and gives teachers that root cause, which helps them get insight about their practice that may not be available to them any other way. No matter how self-reflective we are, it's always helpful for somebody to come in and say, here's what I saw, here's what I think the pattern means, and give me insight for things that I can't see about my practice.

That is the purpose of feedback. 

And so we should be designing our feedback process. We should be designing the way that we observe.

We should be designing our feedback conversations to offer that insight. The second thing is that once we give them insight, our feedback should be inviting teachers to do things differently. If we give people insight and we say, okay, so, you know, there's some insight, you know, good luck, then we've missed part of the feedback conversation.

But the second thing is if we give them insight about their practice that helps them see the one thing, the most important thing that they need to be addressing right now, then we can invite them to do something different. So here's what's the one thing, the one thing that you need to address the most right now is that we need to give students opportunities to make meaning for themselves. Right now, your classroom is, you're telling them everything step by step by step.

And I understand that you have to give them some preliminary information, but after we give them that information, how do we help students use that information for themselves? How do we help students take ownership of that information and make their own meaning using that information? That's what we need to work on next. And so then the next step is to give them something to do, show them how to do it. You don't have to tell them what to do.

We have, you know, one of the things we're going to be doing at this, um, feedback, uh, fail safe feedback workshop is we're going to be talking about four types of feedback, feedback that you can give so that you can give people feedback that always leaves them a choice. You can create a conversation where you can make suggestions, even recommendations, but then help teachers, you, um, take advantage of those suggestions or recommendations and turn those suggestions and recommendations into action that they own because they've chosen it. And we're going to show you how to do that.

So giving them insight, but then inviting them to do things differently in their practice. And then finally, then showing them what will happen if they do showing, helping people see what they, their practice could look like if they implement your feedback. A lot of times we don't do that.

We just tell people what to do as if we're the experts when in fact, we're all colleagues, we're all figuring this out together. But if you could help teachers see, if you do this, this is what I believe will happen for your classroom. This is what I will believe will happen for your students.

Then there's an incentive there. Then they can also have a way to gauge whether or not your feedback is working, whether or not they're doing it correctly. Because if I tell you, Hey, if you help students make meaning for themselves, then what will happen is students will take more ownership over their own learning.

Students will start operating in a more independent way. Students will not always be looking for you for the answers. They will come up with their own answers and they'll find new ways of applying the information to their own lives without you having to create real world connections.

Okay. That gives the teachers a rubric by which they can look for whether or not they're doing it right. If you do this, this is what I should be able to see happening for your students.

And when I go back into the classroom, I'm not just looking to see, is a teacher doing what I asked them to do? I'm looking to see, is it having the right response with the students? And then we come back together and the feedback becomes richer because a teacher can say, you know, I noticed that. And when I did this, the student did this. And this teacher now has ownership over the material.

The teacher now can judge for themselves. 

They don't rely on you to tell them I'm doing a good job or I'm not doing a good job. You've given the teacher the tools to be able to figure that out for themselves.

And that's ultimately what you want as a builder. The whole purpose of giving teachers feedback is to help them grow on their own. Your feedback, if it doesn't empower teachers, if it doesn't create a sense of ownership in your teachers, then you're doing it wrong.

If your feedback means that teachers are waiting for you to tell them you got it correct, you can keep your job, congratulations, you know, versus your feedback, giving teachers information that they can take ownership of and continue to grow, even when you're not in the classroom, then you're doing it wrong. So the reason that many teachers ignore or don't implement or don't welcome your feedback, it's not about you. It's not about the teacher.

It's about the framework that we are using to give feedback. The framework that we were trained in is really more of an evaluation framework. It's more of a compliance framework.

It's a framework that creates a lot of words and writing, but not a lot of change that happens in the classroom. But when you give feedback like a builder, everything changes. First of all, you give teachers insight about their practice that they may not have been able to grab on their own.

Second of all, that insight invites teachers to do things differently. And third, when they do things differently, you help them see the impact that it can have on students so that teachers can gauge their own practice. You've given them another source of feedback other than you to help them see the effectiveness of your feedback.

You do those three things and your feedback will help teachers transform their practice. It'll get teachers growing. They'll welcome your feedback.

They'll be excited about your feedback and then excited to tell you they did it and this is the difference that it made in their classroom. When you give feedback the right way, you can help your teachers grow. And we say you can help your teachers grow at least one level in one critical domain every single year.

Often it's more than that. 

So if teachers are ignoring your feedback or you're not seeing the growth and change in the classroom that you that you want to see, then let's abandon these the way that we are trained to give feedback because it's not working. Let's try to give teachers feedback like a builder.

I'll talk to you next time. Hey, if you're ready to get started being a builder right away, then I want to invite you to join us at Buildership University. It's our exclusive online community for builders just like you, where you'll be able to get the exact training that you need to turn your school into a success story right now with the people and resources you already have.

Inside, you'll find our best online courses, live trainings with me, tons of resources, templates, and exemplars, and monthly live office hours with me, where you can ask me anything and get my help on whatever challenge you're facing right now. If you're tired of hitting obstacle after obstacle, and you're sick of tiny little incremental gains each year, if you're ready to make a dramatic difference in your school right now, then you need to join Buildership University. Just go to BuildershipUniversity.com and get started writing your school success story today.

Hey, it's Robyn here. And I want to thank you for listening to today's episode. Now, if you have a question about today's episode, or you just want to keep the conversation going, did you know that we had a School Leadership Reimagined Facebook group? All you need to do is go to Facebook, join the School Leadership Reimagined Facebook group.

Now, there are going to be a couple of questions that we ask at the beginning because we want to protect this group and make sure that we don't have any trolls come in and that it really is for people who are principals, assistant principals, district administrators. So make sure you answer those questions or you won't get in, but then we can keep the conversation going. Plus we do a lot of great bonus content.

I'm in there every single weekday. So if you have a question or comment about the episode, let's continue the conversation. Join us at the School Leadership Reimagined Facebook group, and I'll talk to you next time.

Thank you for listening to the School Leadership Reimagined podcast for show notes and free downloads visit https://schoolleadershipreimagined.com/

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