Three Ways to Tell if Someone is Really a Builder


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You're listening to School Leadership Reimagined, episode number 254

Hey builders before we jump into today's show, I need to know something, are you and I connected on the socials? Because if we're not we need to be so connect with me. I'm on Facebook at Robyn Jackson.

I am on Twitter at Robyn underscore mine steps. I'm on LinkedIn at Robyn Jackson. Let's connect and let's keep the conversation going. Now onto the show. You're listening to the school leadership reimagined podcast episode 254. How do builders like us make a dramatic difference in the lives of our students in spite of all the obstacles we face? How do you keep your vision for your school from being held hostage by resistant teachers, uncooperative parents, ridiculous district policies or lack of time, money or resources. If you're facing those challenges right now, here's where you'll find the answers strategies, and actionable tips you need to overcome any obstacle you face. You don't have to wait to make a difference in the lives of the people you serve. You can turn your school into a success story right now with the people and resources you already have. Let's get started.

Hey, builders, welcome to another episode of the school leadership reimagined podcast. I'm your host, Robyn Jackson. And today I want to talk to you about something that someone asked me recently at the ASCD conference, it was great seeing so many of you at the ASCD conference. And thanks so much for coming to my session. And every time I do a conference session doesn't matter the conference, when I get there, and I get set up once I'm set up, there are usually a lot of people in the room who are just kind of waiting for the time to start. And so I hate that. So what I do is I normally open up the floor for q&a. So it's always a good idea to get to my sessions early. Because you can get you know, some questions answered here. Other people's questions get answered. It's really a fun time. So I was doing that at the ASCD conference. And there was a gentleman there who asked a really interesting question. He said, You know, I am about to start my AP journey. And I am a builder, my heart and I want to make sure that the school that I select in the principal for whom I work is a builder. So what are some signs to let me know that someone is a builder would have a whole bunch of time to go and deep for the answer.

So I give them a quick answer there. 

But I've been thinking about it a lot because I do think it's really important especially as you are on your builder ship journey to understand what are the signs that someone is a builder if you are an aspiring principal and you're looking for a place to land it's really important for your builder ship journey to work with someone who is a builder to it, otherwise you're just going to be frustrated. I know too many APS right now who are builders and they want to do this work but they're working for a principal that's afraid to take risk or they're working for a principal who shuts their builders ship work down and pushes them more towards a leadership or worse a boss paradigm so it's important to be able to screen that way. If you are already a principal it's important to as you're looking for a piece or other people to work in your building that you can recognize even if people don't know that their builder yet these are some signs that someone is a potential builder. You can I know what most people do is to say here here's my vision do you agree that vision and if I want the job badly enough I will say yeah, I agree with your vision I love your vision I I can't wait to do that work, but do they really. So there's some other things that you can listen for in the conversation that helps you recognize whether another person you're dealing with is truly a builder even if they don't know it yet. So I want to share that with you today especially as we're going into interview season whether you are switching districts you may be a principal looking for a job yourself and wondering if the superintendent that you are thinking about working for will will support your builder ship your builders ship dreams and your builder ship vision. So this is another reason why this is so important. Okay, so I want to give you three telltale signs that may not be so obvious but we'll let you know if someone is a builder or or will support you as a builder. Okay, so the first one is, of course, the obvious one, it's the bigness of their own vision. Usually when someone is the builder their vision is bigger right? So they're not the vision isn't just, you know, I want to grow 3% here or 5% They're like if you hear that, you know you're not dealing with a with a builder. If you hear things like I think we can grow more I'm really interested in hearing about how we can eventually reach all kids. Those are signs that that person is a builder. Now that's the obvious answer, right? Everybody kind of knows that, that if the closer someone comes to having that 100% vision, or even the closer someone comes to getting excited about hearing about your 100% vision, the more likely they are to be a builder. So that's the obvious one. 

The second sign that that can let you know that someone is a builder is to listen to how they talk about time. So builders think in bigger time increments, a boss is thinking about next day, next week, next month. So when when they're talking to you, they're talking about what their plans are to either get to the end of the school year, or what their plans are to get through next month or next week, their time increments are very short. And that's as far as they see, that's as far as they think that's a sign that you're dealing with somebody who's going to be a boss. And usually that's also a sign that you're dealing with someone who is not thinking about the long term, they're just busy putting out fires, they're busy dealing with just the day to day, they're stuck in the day to day, and they're going to want you to be stuck in the day to day. And so when you start talking about this bigger 100% vision, it's going to sound like nonsense to them, because they can't imagine getting to 100% this semester, and that's what they're worried about. So you want to be careful about people whose time horizon really kind of is limited to a semester are limited to the next couple of weeks for the next couple of months. Now, if you're talking to a leader, their time horizon is going to be next year. So they're talking about the next year, but they can't see beyond that. So leaders tend to think in like year long chunks. So right now a lot of leaders are thinking about their 2425 plan, they're they're already starting to think about like the next school year, but that's as far as they can see. And their plans don't extend beyond the school year. So when you talk to them about Okay, so what are the things that you're putting in place? Or what are the things that you are thinking about, they're gonna say, Well, this year, we really want to get this in. And that's as far as they go. And the challenge with people who think in those year long increments, is that all of their strategies are limited by the year, they're not considering strategies that might take longer, but render or yield more results on students. And the other danger is that they typically change strategies from one year to the next. So this year, we're doing PLCs. 

Next year, we're doing PBIS. The following year, we're going to do a ninth grade academies. The following year, we're going to do science of reading, oh, and then we're going to do math notebooks. And so they are thinking in year long chunks, and their vision is going to be capped or limited by that year. So be careful about that. You know, you're talking to a builder when the builder starts talking about bigger time chunks, so the next three years, and they're making plans that they're putting in place that they they intend to last for longer than a school year. So a builder might also Institute PLCs, but they're not thinking about, Well, this year, we're going to focus on PLCs. They're saying we're putting PLCs in place so that we can achieve our bigger vision, do you see the difference? They're not talking about the thing itself, like this is the focus for the year, they are talking about the next step in our progression towards our vision is this thing. So I'm not putting it in for the year, I am in the vesting in this particular strategy, because I have long range aspirations for this strategy to make a difference in terms of our bigger long term vision. So if you are talking to somebody and they are talking about long stretches of time, they are talking about investing for the long term, then you know that that person is a builder. Now, I also want you to apply this to yourself, right? So if you hear yourself talking about well this year, or this semester, or this month, or this week, a lot, then that's a sign that you are slipping out a builder ship and and you're going back to the way you were trained as a leader or as a boss. And so I want to encourage you to even monitor your own language. It's really, really important that when you're talking to your staff, when you're talking to your teachers that you help them to recognize that the things that we're doing now we're investing in because we are thinking long term. Okay? So a lot of times people hear build a ship and they say, Oh yeah, your vision and three years or less, and so they start trying to talk in three year timeframes, but they're not thinking that way. 

It's really important that as a builder you stretch out your timeframe. 

Now, I struggle with this too, because I'm thinking about, well, we got to get this done right now. Because, you know, there's a problem that I have to solve or there's something there's a goal that's in front of me. And I have to fight against that and start thinking about, is this something that I want to be doing three years from now? This is something that I can see us doing five years from now? Because if it isn't, should I be doing it now? Because usually, if you're thinking about, well, this is what we're going to do right now. But then later on, we'll do something else. And what you're doing is investing in a bandaid and not investing in a long term solution. Right. So I've done podcasts about this before, where there's a saying that says, If you can't, if you don't see yourself doing it for the next five years, you shouldn't do it for a day, if you don't see yourself doing it for the next decade, you shouldn't do it for a day. And builders understand that. So we're not saying well, this is what we're going to do right now until we get to this point, then we'll do something else. Builders are saying, if we're going to invest the time and energy in doing something, we're going to do it for the long term. And here's what it does for your staff, it keeps your staff from lurching from one initiative to the next. And because they know that it's not going to last, they never invest fully. So how do you even know that the thing that you're investing in will work if nobody invest in it fully, because you know, next year, it's going to be something else, give yourself time, give yourself time to really get good at something. And so anything that you introduce that has as a as a policy as a strategy as a tactic that you're doing in your school, you need to make sure that the thing that you're you're suggesting is something that you feel like you can do a decade from now, but it will still serve you a decade from now, if it doesn't, you shouldn't do it for a day. No band aids. 

Okay, so that's a second way, the first way the bigness of their vision, the second way, the length of their time horizon. And the third way, is the type of problems that they solve. Okay, this one, really, really important, and it's very subtle. But once you, once you learn this, and you start learning to listen for this, you're going to be amazed at how clear it really is. When you talk to someone, what kinds of problems are they solving? Right? Are they solving tactical problems? are they solving things like? Well, you know, we're trying to get our attendance from 85%, you know, to at least 90% attendance, right? That so we're going to what kind of, you know, phone tree should we use or we want to increase more rigor. So I'm looking for lesson planning format that I can get all of my teachers using. So we can, you know, get everybody to write rigorous lesson plans, or does anybody have a great warm up activity that will get students more engaged, those are tactics. And if people are looking if the problem they think they have is I need the right warmup activity, or I need the right form, or I need the right lesson planning format, or I need the right phone tree for my attendance problem. If you're looking for a tactical solution, then the problem that you're solving is too small.

Frankly, any of those things might work if you're if you're if you if they're part of a bigger, a bigger strategic thinking. But if you're just focused on the tactics, I just need, you know, I noticed that my teachers aren't differentiating. So does anybody have a good book that I can get my teachers to use for a book study so they can differentiate more? Yeah, I see those kinds of requests come all the time and some of the principle groups that I'm a part of, and every time I see that, I say, that's the wrong problem to be solving. If you are talking to somebody and the problems that they're solving are small or tiny, or tactical. That person is not thinking about a vision, that person is thinking about, what band aid can I slap on this problem right now to so that I don't so this problem doesn't cause me any stress anymore. And if you find yourself doing that, as well, you want to stop and check yourself. Because if you are just focused on the tiny tactical details, and those are the problems you're solving, the problems you're solving aren't big enough, and you need bigger problems.

Now, leaders saw slightly bigger problems lead leaders solve strategic problems. 

So leaders are asking themselves questions like how can we raise test scores between now and the next benchmark? What kind of training or PD can I give staff that will help them plan more rigorous lessons? What books should I be reading that will help me get better as a leader? Those are bigger problems and a tactical problems are very strategic. And we've been trained to solve problems like that. So We solve those kinds of problems. We feel like this is the work this we're doing our jobs. But here's the problem with that. When you focus on even those bigger strategic problems, you know, how do I increase test scores this year? I've noticed that attendance is shrinking. So what can we do to improve attendance? I noticed when I did on a walk through that the teachers are not teaching to the level of rigor, how do we give them more PD to help them teach with a greater degree of rigor, when we solve those kinds of problems? The challenge with doing that strategically, is we are not the way we're, we're always putting out the next fire. So I see a problem, I try to get strategic about solving that problem. And then that takes me to the next problem. And the next problem after that. The other problem was strategic thinking strategically is that it's not connected to a bigger vision. So yes, I am solving those problems, I'm trying to be strategic about solving those problems. But a lot of times, doing that outside of the context of the bigger vision means that I choose solutions that I'm going to later abandon, because I realized those solutions are not getting me to where I need to be. Okay. And then the last problem with that strategic thinking is that you don't know what's ahead. So you're trying to be strategic and kind of solve it now and kind of, you know, look ahead to the future, to know what you're going to encounter. 

So you're looking for a solution to the problem that you have right now, with a danger that that solution may not work. Six months from now, because things have changed. And you saw the problem that's in front of you today. But you haven't really solved the problem. You've mitigated it, the solution helps you deal with it today. But it doesn't eliminate the problem altogether. Builders are different builders are saying I don't want to keep solving the same problems over and over again, how do I eliminate the problem so that it just doesn't show up anymore. So when builders are, are looking at problems, they're looking for the opportunity that the problem suggest, let me give you an example. I was talking to the principal and the principal is having a really a big challenge with working on on creating more rigor in there for the teachers. So the teachers, the structure that the teachers, what the he observed, the teachers in the classroom doing wasn't very rigorous. It's kind of like, you know, kind of lockstep following the curriculum. Yes. But if the teachers were doing all the work, the students weren't doing the thinking for themselves. Okay. Now, as a builder, he would have said, I mean, sorry, as a boss, he would have said, Oh, I don't see any rigor. Is there like a? Is there like a thing that they can all use or strategy that they can all use to increase rigor? And he might have gone to John Hattie, or someplace like that and said, Okay, what's the highest yield strategy? I'm going to teach it all the teachers, and then I'm going to force teachers to use that in a classroom. So we can have more rigor, he might have walked around with a checklist to check and see, did the teachers use the rigorous instructional strategy that he trained? And then that will be it? Okay, so that's kind of the tactical piece. 

Now, if he's a leader, he might have said, well, you know, I need my teachers don't necessarily understand rigor. So I'm gonna do a PD, maybe a four part PD series on rigor, get all the teachers trained on rigorous instruction. I'm going to get them the tools they need, we're going to have conversations about rigor. I'm going to have the work and the PLC is on rigor, I'm going to be observing for rigor, it's a strategic move this year, we're going to make this year about rigor. And then once we do that, then hopefully they'll have it and then we can move on to the next thing. Okay. Here's what a builder does. builder says, A wonder why the teachers aren't teaching with rigor, the curriculum is rigorous. They're following the curriculum. And yet, they're still not rigor in the classroom. What's really going on here, and then the builder would start investigating builder to talk to teachers, the builder would be in PLCs, observing teachers and looking at how they plan the builder would be looking at the curriculum itself. And seeing is the curriculum really as rigorous as they think they are the builder will be kind of thinking about what's happening in the school and as the builder does that, the builder finds the opportunity. The builder gets to the root of the problem and says, here's the opportunity for our staff Hey, Robyn here and I just want to break in real quick to ask you a huge favor. You see, I want to get the word out to everybody about builder ship and I could use your help. If you're really enjoying this episode. Would you mind just going to your a podcast platform and leaving a quick review. You see the reviews get the word out. They tell other people, this is a great show other people who have never heard of school leadership reimagined before can hear about it. And you'd be sharing the word about builder ships. So would you mind just leaving a quick review? It would mean the world to me. Okay, now back to the show. 

Now, that opportunity might mean, at the end of the day, yeah, there needs to be more training. 

But the training is not just let's buy a rigorous training package and do that the training is saying, Okay, how, what aspect of rigorous instruction? Do we really need? If we're going to get to our vision? How is this keeping us from our vision? And what's the opportunity here? If I remove this barrier? How does that get us to our vision, and then the builder is going to figure out, okay, even if we do training, we're going to focus our training on this aspect of rigor. Because if we can get our teachers thinking in this way, and connect it to our vision, that's how we're going to achieve our goal. And so the builder is not looking to solve problems. The builder is looking to see what those what opportunities those problems represent. Okay. So in this example, when we started looking at it, and really thinking about it, we saw two things. First of all, the teachers didn't really understand what rigor was, they thought rigor meant harder, more complicated, that sort of thing. So we have to clear that up, right. So there's an opportunity there to have a conversation as a staff about what rigor really means. But the other opportunity we saw was that a lot of the instructional strategies that teachers were using were, quote, unquote, the right strategies. But there was the there was an opportunity to, for teachers to to take those strategies, and find unique ways for students to engage in the material. And the teachers weren't seeing those opportunities. The teachers felt like they had to do the thing the way that was supposed to be done. So there was an opportunity for us to go back and have a conversation about our vision, about our mission about the core values, and then have teachers really see what that meant for their instructional practice, without having to force teachers to kind of all use the same strategy. So the PD looked a little different. 

So first thing we did was we assess teachers in terms of their understanding of rigor. And we moved, we put teachers into four different groups, those who are novices around rigor, those who were apprentices, that's the language we use, you know, the novices, they don't really understand it, they need some basic instructions on what rigor is, and helping them understand that and they really were struggling with some lesson planning as well. Then we put the some teachers in a group we called apprentices, these were teachers who had a lot of the instructional strategies had a basic understanding, but couldn't quite figure out how to make it work in their classroom for their subject. Then we had a group we call practitioners who were doing a pretty good job with rigor and the instructional strategies, but we saw opportunities for tweaks that can make it even better. And then we have the master teachers whose classrooms were so rigorous, and so masterfully done. And with the master teachers we were working with, what are the adaptations? What are the things that you are doing that maybe we don't even understand that we might be able to share with other people and standardize it? How do you How would you take this curriculum and make it more rigorous, and we were giving them opportunities to play with stuff. And we divided them into those four groups. And the opportunity was to work with teachers where they were. And the goal of each group was to help them to get to the next level so that they could tackle the next challenge in front of them. What's really interesting is that when we did this, and we got we, first of all, all the teachers were engaged, all the teachers were getting PD at the level that they needed it, the conversations were rich, everybody felt unleashed to be very creative. And we saw tangible progress. And then a matter of months, every single we couldn't find a classroom that wasn't rigorous, because we found the opportunity there. 

So when you think like a builder, you're you're not thinking about solving problems from a tactical level or strategic level.

You're looking at the problem, understanding the problem first and saying there's an opportunity here. And I promise you when you start to think that way, as a builder, everything changes. I'll tell you, I'll be honest with you, even though I you know live in breed builder ship, there are times when I still struggle with builder ship, and we were working on something a few like maybe a month ago, and it was a problem, right? And so I went because it was a problem that felt big and and I felt a lot of pressure around it. The first thing I did was I start looking for tactical solutions. And you know how this works because we're all educators, right? So I started reading everything I said I mean, like, I was telling a group the other day, I had 52 tabs open on my computer with different websites I was looking at, okay, what is this person doing? What is this person doing over here? And I was looking for a tactical solution. And all it did was make me feel more and more and more overwhelmed. Right? So then the next thing I did, as I said, Okay, these are tactics, I don't really know, what's the strategy. So then I started studying different strategies and trying on different strategies to do this strategy, she would do the strategy, she would do the strategy. And I, again, felt very overwhelmed there a lot of options, which one's the right one to do? I don't know, if you feel that way. Sometimes when you're, you know, looking for the strategy and the solution. How do I know this one's going to work, right. So I was feeling that way. And whenever I feel overwhelmed, the way that I deal with it is I just go grab some paper or sit down the computer. And I just get it all out, I just just do just do what's called free riding, I just write whatever is on my mind. And over time stuff starts to organize itself. Just seeing my thoughts on paper helps me to kind of say, what's really going on here. 

And I said, The problem is, I talk builder ship, I'm trying to solve a builder ship problem, but I'm not thinking like a builder. So instead of a tactic or strategy, where is the opportunity? What's the problem that I'm trying to solve? And then where's the opportunity in that problem? And so I looked at the problem that I was trying to solve. And I thought I was trying to solve one problem. But when I really thought about it, I realized that's not the problem trying to solve I'm trying to solve this other problem here. So I got to the root, I realized the problem that I was really trying to solve. And then I said, Okay, so here's the problem, what are the opportunities? And the way that I found the opportunities? I took every obstacle, every objection, and I turned it around. So you know, let's think think about it in the school thing? Well, I don't have the time during the day to get teachers together. There's no common planning time. So what would that look like in a school context? Okay, so let's say that your problem is that you don't see a lot of rigor happening. And so in the classroom, and so you go in, and you you're looking at all the things and then you say, Okay, we understand that, that the teachers don't really understand rigor, I'd love to group them into groups, but I don't have any common time I get teachers once a month for their contract for staff meeting. And then that's it, I don't have any other common time where I can get teachers together to be able to group them in a way that's differentiated. That's the obstacle. All right, so let's find the opportunity in the obstacle. 

Okay, I don't have time to do it in the traditional way, how else? Could I do it? Could I do some sort of online? PLCs? Could I rethink my master schedule? Could I adjust the the the bell schedule so that we find a chunk of time during the school day that teachers could do this? Could I find other opportunities for teachers, even though they're grouped in these things? Do they have to work together? Is there an opportunity for teachers to do some individual study, but they're on different levels? And they're working through the levels? can I leverage? Is there an opportunity to leverage technology in ways that I haven't considered? Do the all the teachers have to get together in a group? Or are there opportunities for teachers who are on the same level to work together in pairs so that they're holding each other accountable? Do they have to work with people on their level? Or could I make groups of people at different levels, but they're still working on material and supporting each other. So they're all of these opportunities that exist in the problem of getting teachers together. And I noticed this, you know, in office hours, a lot of times people get stuck. And we have office hours inside of BU, and when people come to BU for office hours, and they say okay, so I'll say tell me where you're getting stuck. And they start talking about all the obstacles. And then as I don't have to know anything about their situation, I can coach them on that by saying, All right, so let's look at the opportunities and the obstacles. And when you do that, it, there's something that unlocks for you, there's something that that unlocks in terms of, of a feeling that sense of helplessness, because you you start to see, there are other options, and you get really creative and innovative and it's so much fun. 

So you want to work with or for somebody like that.

So when you talk to them, I would ask them questions like so what's the biggest challenge that you're facing right now? And, and, and and how are you tackling that? Because listening to them talk about Well, I've been reading a lot or, you know, I have this great tactic that I want to try versus while I've been thinking a lot about the problem itself, and trying to understand that and, and I feel like the problem has some opportunities there. At the sign that you're working with a builder, that's a sign that that's somebody who's going to that that's the who's going to really look for how do we eliminate problems, rather than how do we just mitigate problems, that's a sign that you're going to work with somebody who's going to support you to help do the same thing. So just to recap, there are three big tells that builders have that are subtle, but if you listen, you can hear it. And even if that person doesn't identify as a builder, yet, you know that this is a person who is a builder in their hearts. The first one is the bigness of their vision. How big is their vision? Is their vision 100%? Or some? Is or is it something else? If they're if their vision isn't really truly about all kids, I know people say all kids, when you talk to them, they say, Well, you know, I like to get on kids. And it's it's more of a dream, not a vision, they're not focused on working towards helping all kids. Listen for that the bigness of their vision, not their hopes, their dreams, but their actual vision for what you their school, or their organization, or their work can actually do. Okay. The second thing is the, the length of their time horizon. Alright, so the bigness of their vision, big vision, all kids life of their time horizon, do they talk in days, weeks semesters? Do they talk in school years? Or do they talk in larger time horizons? Three years, five years? Because that's a person who's focused more on the bigger vision instead of just surviving this year? And then the third thing is the quality of the problems that they are solving? are they solving tactical problems? are they solving strategic problems? Or are they looking for opportunities in their problems? Do the problems that they're trying to solve represent opportunities that they are that they're pursuing? And if they're focused on tactics or strategies, they're not a builder, they're focused on opportunities, that's when these know that you're working with the builder. 

Now, as I've been going through this, I hope you've also been applying this to yourself thinking about your own your own thought process, how are you approaching your work? And even as I was preparing for this episode, I had to go back and look at myself and and really check myself because there are times when my vision I say, 100%, you know, the vision for us here at mindset says that no builders should be university is that 100% of the builders we support, achieve their 100% vision, that's our vision. So everything we do, we're not there yet. But everything we do, is designed to get us closer and closer, how do we help every single person we support achieve their vision, if I get out of that mindset, then my vision is not big enough, the work that I'm doing is not focused on that vision. And I'm not being a builder. Okay. And then I have to check myself, and I hope you're checking yourself to about thinking about my time horizons, a lot of times, I'm like, you know, let's just get through this quarter. And when I say that, ding, ding, that's a sign, I've slipped out a builder ship. And so I have to catch myself and recognize that I'm investing in the long term. The other part of that is that if I grab a tactic to solve a problem right now, but it's not something that I see ourselves doing a decade from now, I don't do it for a day. And so I have to catch myself and I had to do that this week, there was so you know, something that was kind of stressed out about, and then I was like, Oh, well, we'll just do this for right now. And I thought, if I'm not going to do it for a decade, I shouldn't do it for a day. Okay. So that was the second thing. 

I want you to check yourself in terms of how you what kind of problems are you solving? Do you spend your day thinking about tactics? Do you spend your day thinking about strategy? Or do you spend your day thinking about and looking for opportunities, and if you are doing anything, but looking for opportunities, you slipped out of eldership, come back, come back to us, so that you can do the work that you really need to do and achieve what you really want to achieve for your students. So three tells the bigness of their vision, the length of their time horizon, and the quality of their problems. Those are three things that will let you know that the person you are interviewing, or the person with whom you're interviewing, or the person with whom you're working. is either a boss, a leader, or are they approaching everything they do, like a builder. I'll talk to you next time.

Hey, if you're ready to get started being a builder right away, then I want to invite you to join us at builder ship University. It's our exclusive online community for builders just like you where you'll be able to get The exact training that you need to turn your school into a success story right now with the people and resources you already have. Inside you'll find our best online courses, live trainings with me tons of resources, templates and exemplars and monthly live office hours with me where you can ask me anything and get my help on whatever challenge you're facing right now. If you're tired of hitting obstacle after obstacle, and you're sick of tiny little incremental gains each year, if you're ready to make a dramatic difference in your school right now, then you need to join builders ship University, just go to build a ship and get started writing your school success story today. Hey, real quick before you go. If you enjoyed today's episode, and you know someone who would really benefit from what you heard here today, and maybe they're struggling with a thing that we talked about in today's episode, would you take a moment and share this episode with them? You see, not only will it help us get the word about builder ship out to more people, but you're gonna look like a rockstar because you're gonna give people something they can really use to help them get unstuck and be better at building their schools. Plus, it would mean the world to me. Thanks so much, and I'll see you next time.

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