School Leadership Reimagined - How to Avoid Initiative Fatigue

How to Avoid Initiative Fatigue 

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You’re listening to School Leadership Reimagined, episode number 46. 

Welcome to the School Leadership Reimagined podcast...

where we rethink what's possible to transform your school. If you're tired of settling for small wins and incremental improvement, then stay tuned to discover powerful and practical strategies for getting every teacher in your school moving towards excellence. Now, here's your host, Robyn Jackson.

Hey Builders!

Welcome to another episode of school leadership reimagined. I'm your host Robyn Jackson and today we are going to talk about initiative fatigue. You know what I mean by initiative fatigue, that awful feeling you get when you are doing yet another initiative for the school year. You're trying yet another new software or you're rolling out yet another new curriculum or you are trying yet another new program and you just, you know, not again, that's what most people are thinking and I'll tell you, I remember the first time that I realized that initiative fatigue was even a thing.

I had just started at mindsteps and I was working with really our first big client and they had hired me to come into the school system and work with eight of their worst performing middle and high schools in the district to kind of help them increase the level of rigor in their instructional programs. They want it to start avid and I'm like, ah, honors increase the honors enrollment and their middle schools and in their high schools they were really trying to beef up their AP programs but also to bring rigor to kind of all the classrooms.

 I'm really excited to start.

I really believe in rigor. I believe rigor can do everything except maybe, you know, cure cancer. I think that most instructional problems that you're seeing in schools are, you know, they really, they really are about rigor and if you change the rigor of instruction, you can change everything. So I was really excited to go into these schools and start working with them around rigor. And so I start, I went to, I remember going into one high school and they were really excited. You know, I walk up to the school and on the, on the sign of, you know, there's a sinus as welcome Dr. Jackson.

And I'm like, oh, I'm feeling so welcome. And I go in and the principal greets me and all of the administrative team is there and the coaches are there and the teachers are excited that I'm coming and I'm really feeling at home. And then I start, you know, kind of doing a walkthrough with the principal and he's telling me a little bit about what's happening at his school and all the things that they're doing. And they were, you know, starting ninth grade academies and at the same time they were starting an IB program and they were trying to beef up their AP program and they were looking at, you know doing some more kind of restorative justice practices for their disciplinary issues. And they were starting on PLCs. And by the time they were finished, it was like 13 different initiatives. And so then he said, so we're really excited to be starting rigor too.

When are you going to have the time?

I'm like, oh no, you know, we're doing all these things, but we really think that rigor can be an important part of it. And what they were trying to do with tack rigor on to this laundry list of other initiatives that they were focused on. And he said, no, no, no, be great. And when I sat down to start talking to the teachers, the teachers were completely overwhelmed because at the same time that they were trying to learn rigorous instructional practices for me, they're also pulling out their avid books and saying, well, where does this fit into the avid curriculum? And then they're saying, well, you know, we already have an agenda for our PLCs, so what are we supposed to fit in planning this way? And we have this ninth grade academy that's really focused on this and we know I'm still trying to learn the new curriculum and we got a new attendance software.

And so they were so overwhelmed that they didn't even have the bandwidth to listen to what I had to say about rigor. They liked it. They, they thought, you know, this is great but when am I going to have the time to do it? And so I went back to the the administrator and I said, you know, I feel like people are just overwhelmed right now. And so what we're trying to do with rigor is not resonating. I mean it's resonating because they, they agree this is what we should do. They would love to teach this way. They can't find time in their day to teach this way. And they're wondering, okay, are we doing rigor? Are we doing ninth grade academies? Are we doing avid? Are we doing AP? Are we doing IB?

Which one are we doing?

 Because it's really hard to focus and truly focus and give your best effort to all of these initiatives. And he looked at me like, well no, I mean I think rigor can go with all of them. I mean rigor would be, you know, it's going to help us do avid better and rigor is going to help us with our IB program and rigor is going to help us. And he, he, he wanted to tack rigor on to everything else. But when you are rolling something out to your staff, they don't see it that way. What they see is more work and he couldn't see that. And I kept trying to tell him and he couldn't see it. And honestly I don't think we were really successful in that school. But I walked away from that experience with a lifelong lesson, which is that when you have so many initiatives going on, when you are trying to do everything, you end up not doing anything.

And a lot of people feel the pain of low student achievement or feel the pain of low test scores or feel the pain of, you know, lack of, you know, the kids coming sober far behind or feel the pain of, of kids who are impacted by poverty and different circumstances coming into school and bringing that trauma with them to school. And so they say, you know what, here's the pain. Let me immediately find a solution. But builders don't do that. And there's a reason why. And the reason is initiative fatigue. I still see this all the time where I see schools who have a pain, they respond by grabbing a solution. And every year it's a new solution. So this year we're gonna do rigor and next year we're going to do differentiated instruction. Oh wait a minute, we need to do standards based grading. Oh, wait a minute.

How about project-based learning?

Oh, we're going to try this. And so every single year you're just grabbing a program and there's nothing wrong with the programs. This is not a criticism of those programs. What this is is I want to at least ask the question, do you know why you're buying those programs? I mean, yeah, most people say, well, because we have this problem. And I'm saying, okay, how does this particular technique or program or approach solve your problem? And then that's where people clam up. They don't know. They have no idea about how this program is going to directly solve the problem. They really don't even have a good understanding of the problem itself. They, they, they, they hope that this solution will, will do something. And I find that most solutions that are adopted like that have a six month to two year timeline or shelf life and basically you grab something in six months later, it's done.

You've tried it, you've rolled it out, people have lost interest, you've moved on to the next initiative. Or if you stick it out for 18 months, people will say, well, okay, we did that. Now what's out? What? What's next? You know, people call my office, they don't do it so much anymore. But when I first started at mindsteps, they would call my office, especially after never work harder than your students got published. They would call my office and say, Hey, we've got this PD day coming up and we want Robyn to come and speak to our staff. And our process here is we don't just book days. We, we actually want to engage in real transformation. So it's really hard to get just a single day of, of, of, of work with us because I've found over the years that when people call for a single day, what they really want is just to fill a slot.

Sometimes they're saying, well this is all we can afford. 

And we say, okay, if this is all you can afford, let's find another way to make that money go further so that you can actually see transformation. Because I don't think transformation happens from a day. So they will call and say, you know, we wanted to come for one day, we've got this day and you know, February and we'd like for her to come. And then, you know, you can't just do that. So we have this process we go through where we talked to you about what is, what are your challenges? Cause I want to make sure that if I come, it's something that I'm actually equipped to support you with. And people saying, well, you know we just have this PD day that we have to fill up. And you know, last year we had x person and the year before that we had y person.

So this year we thought we'd bring Robyn and we don't take those gigs because that's just really about putting a body in a space for a day. I call that PD and captivity where you know, they bring you in, they throw everybody in an auditorium or in a room. They, you know, people have to be there. You hope to meet the workshop, you know, engaging. It's possible. But at the end of the day they're going to go back into what they already already were doing because that PD was not part of a bigger plan for transformation in that school. That PD was just filling a day rather than having that PD actually make a difference in instruction in the school. And what appalls me and appall is a strong word, but I want to say it here and what really appalls me is how freely people do that. How freely people book PD because they have to fill a day rather than thinking strategically about how they are going to be supporting teachers.

And how that PD experience fits into the bigger vision for their school. And I guess I shouldn't be appalled at this point. I've been doing this for a long time, but it still is shocking every single time that happens. And sometimes when I'm on the phone with people and I'm saying, okay, so why do you want to, to focus on rigor or why do you want to focus on project based learning? Or why do you want to focus on differentiated instruction? Sometimes the best that people have is, wow, we need to focus on rigor because we don't have rigor. How do you know you don't have rigor? Wow, our test scores are down. Okay.

Do you know that rigor is a cause for test scores being down?

 Well, if we have more rigor, our scores wouldn't be down. This, this circular reason. And we go back and forth, back and forth and people have never thought through their problems deeply enough to really get to the root of their problems. 

And that's what leads to initiative fatigue. Because if you're just grabbing at solutions and every single year it's a new solution as a new initiative, okay, we're going to try this and you don't give it time to work and you don't fully commit to it or you try to pile it on to everything else that people are doing, then how can you expect that initiative to do what it was designed to do? Again, this is not a criticism of the different solutions that are out there, but I do think that we have to take a really good look at how we are shopping for PD. We have to take a really good look at what solutions were buying. There are a lot of people who will sell you a solution and you know, you just, you call and you say, I need this and I'm like, we're happy to sell it to you. We don't do that because we don't want to work with schools where we don't believe we can actually make a difference.

I don't want to do that work anymore.

So our process looks a little different. When we talk to people, we're saying, okay, why are you calling? Why do you think this is the solution? And a lot of times by the time we finished that conversation with people, even before they've ever bought anything from us, by the time they finish me, finish that conversation with people. People are, they have it. They're saying, oh you're right, I don't need this. I really need that. And so then they go back and sometimes we steer people away to other things because we don't want to sell people something that they don't really need. So today I want to talk about initiative fatigue. I want to talk about why we are experiencing initiative fatigue.

And I also want to talk about the antidote. What can you do instead? What's a better approach? But before I jump into all of that, I do want to remind you about builder's lab because I think that builder's is in many ways the antidote to initiative fatigue because the process that we take you through at builder's lab helps you pinpoint exactly what you need to be doing right now. So you cut through a lot of the noise. A lot of people come to builder's lab and they'd go back to their schools and know, you know what, I thought we had to do all these things, but really we're just going to focus on this one thing. We're going to dig in deep, we're going to do this one thing. And when people do that and we do it for 90 day stretches and then we come back and we say, okay, how did that work?

Okay, well here are the tweaks we need to make and here's the next one thing we need to do. 

And when you do that, you actually get more accomplished during the school year. Then you would have any other way. So I'm want to invite you to builder's lab. We're doing one more this year. It's October seven through nine and we're going to be doing it in Dallas, Texas. So please join us for builder's lab three days where in a very small setting, a very intimate setting, you and I work together, we help you kind of take all of those symptoms that you're experiencing in your school. And we try to get to the root cause of what those symptoms are and then together you and I develop a plan for what you're going to do next. What's the next best move on your part and not only that, you don't just leave with a plan.

We actually start getting that plan accomplish while you're at builder's lab and then we stick with you for the next 90 days. I send you additional resources, I check in with you to see how you're doing. I do accountability checks to make sure that you're staying on track and if you're not on track, I help you get back on track so that at the end of 90 days, 90 days from attending builder's lab, you can look up and say, not only was that a great PD experience, but look at all that I've accomplished in my school as a result of it. I'm telling you it is powerful. So if you would like to join us for builder's lab, please go to mindsteps inc com slash builder's dash lab. That's mindsteps inc com slash builder's dash lab or you can give us a call in the office at (888) 565-8881 that's 188-EIGHT-FIVE-6588, eight one.

All right, so let's talk about initiative fatigue. 

I talked about kind of some of the challenges around it, but let me talk about how it affects your staff. A lot of times we accused teachers of being cynical or we accused teachers of being satisfied with the status quo or we, you know, go even further and say some teachers are just plain lazy. I honestly believe that a lot of people aren't as cynical as we think they are. They're not as lazy as we think they are. They just are sick of new initiatives. They have initiative fatigue. You know, every year you come back to work, you and there's a new program. Every year there's a new focus. Every year there's a new theme. After a while it just gets to be, you know, run of the mill. There's nothing new exciting about it because we do the same thing every year.

And I don't have to commit to it for too long because it's going to change. I remember working in one school district and they brought me in because they said, you know, our teachers are really worn out and you always talk about never work harder than your students and we feel like our teachers need to hear that message. That's what I got from the district. When I got in and started working with the teachers, the teachers were like, no, that's not our problem at all. Here's our problem. A few years ago the district committed to six traits writing. They said, we are going to go all in on six traits writing, and so we did. We got training, we got materials, we got time, we developed new lessons and new units and we really believe that it works. We've seen the difference with kids. Then this year they come back and they say, okay, forget six traits writing because the state test has changed and now we need to really focus on bcrs, so stop teaching six traits writing.

Now we're going to just focus on BCRS and the teachers were angry because they were committed to six traits writing. 

They didn't believe that bcrs would do the same thing. And so that's why they were so overwhelmed and tired and resistant and cynical because they have bought into one vision and the vision changed midstream and now we're doing something else. Initiative fatigue. I've been in schools where teachers, every single year they roll out a new initiative and so teachers are like, okay, this is just the flavor of the year. Great. And they go in their classrooms and they teach what they were doing before initiative fatigue. When you are constantly switching initiatives and when it makes no sense when there's no internal logic to your switching, that's what you get. Initiative fatigue. Some of you probably feel the same thing with your district every single year you get a new superintendent or you get a new director of school performance and you get a new somebody that comes in and they say, okay, this year we're really gonna double down on this.

And so you go back to your school, you make the hard sell to your teachers and then the district six months later has abandoned it or they're off to something new. Initiative fatigue. And here's why. Initiative fatigue happens. It happens because we are grabbing solutions without fully understanding the problem. Whenever you do that, you will inevitably encounter initiative fatigue. So what's the solution? What's the antidote? Well, this isn't sexy, but it's really important. You don't look for a solution until you fully, you have fully understood the problem. And I think a lot of people, they hear this, they're like, yeah, of course. And then they don't really get it. And then I see a lot of people doing these root cause exercises and I'm going to try not to be too critical of them, but I have seen them so misused where people are doing these root cause exercises and they do the five whys.

I believe in the five whys. 

 I use them. But you don't just walk into a five. Why exercise cold and just like, okay, our school isn't performing the way a shirt. Why? Because kids, you know, test scores, Also, why? I don't know. Maybe because we need more rigor and then you stop there. No, that's not the whole point of it. You've got to dig deep. And most of us don't do the work to really our issues, we're just in this constant state of urgency to solve the issues for the kids. And I get that because you do have to move quickly, but you have to move judiciously as well. So what builders know is that they need to first understand the problem before they look for a solution. They also know that the solution is a lot simpler than they think it is. If it's too complicated, it's not the right solution because we'll just overwork and overwhelm people.

So they also know that they have the right solution is going to clearly solve the real problem and it's going to be simple and elegant. It's not going to be complicated. It's not going to require a huge, you know, kind of, you know, massive effort with very little return. It's going to be a simple solution. So how do you get there? How do you find the simple elegant solution to your problems? Well, the first thing you need to do is you always go back to your core values, your vision and your mission is it a lot of people, they write core values, vision emission, like yeah, we have them. They put them up. I'm like, Whoa, whoa. You know, hopefully we're gonna have a better culture as a result of it, but they don't really exploit the true power of those tools. You see, when you have a clear vision, a clear mission, and a clear set of core values, then at the heart of every symptom you're experiencing is either that you are off mission off vision or you're violating core values.

Let me give you an example. 

I worked with a school once and they were really struggling with, it was, it was really around grade three and grade four reading. So kids were doing fine, you know, pre k one, two, they got two grades, three and four and they start to see this drop off where a lot of kids who were scoring above proficient started kind of dropping in, drifting down to proficient. And then kids just kind of stagnated around grade three and four and they couldn't understand why. And so they were saying, wow, we need to, you know, increase the amount of time kids are reading in grades three and four and new did that. And they added to the reading time and oh wait, do we need a different reading series? And so they switched curriculum, you know, they did all these things and it wasn't working.

And so by the time we sat down to talk, they said, well we tried this, we tried this, we tried this. It's all not working. So you know, I don't really know what it is we can do. Maybe we need different teachers and you know, we can use some help. And we sat down and we started looking and I said, okay, so what is your vision for students? And when they talked about their vision for students, their vision for students was really around helping all of their kids meet or exceed their potential. And that was also around their, their mission was around the same thing. And I said, so in grades three and four, what do you think is happening that's gotten you away from that vision and mission? And what was happening is they were doing so much pre-k to, to, to get kids on grade level by grade two that, that they were stopping, like by the time they get to grades three and four, the sense of urgency wasn't there.

And so teachers weren't looking at where each kid was, especially because so many of our kids were already proficient.

Teachers were kind of still trying to grab those last few kids who were struggling and get them up to proficiency and they weren't focusing on helping every kid maintain or improve their proficiency. And so once we realized that, then we said, okay, so the solution is really around helping teachers figure out how do you still work hard to move those few kids who haven't hit proficiency yet while still also pushing the kids who are already at proficiency to help maintain or improve their proficiency, that what's at the root of their problem. And it got back to their vision and understanding how their vision, they weren't quite fulfilling their vision, their mission and their core values for kids. When you sit down and you start with your vision, mission and core values, you start to see what's really important and what really isn't important.

I'll give you another example. I was working with the school and they were really, really struggling around but it sounds kind of silly, but they were really, you know, kind of perturbed by the number of kids who were like they in the hallways and not in class and not attending their classes. And so they were doing these hallway sweeps and they were doing, you know, all kinds of things to try to get kids in class. And then we sat down and we were looking at their vision, mission and core values and they didn't have 'em. So we develop them and then we said, they said, well we don't have time to do that work until we get kids in class. And so I said, well let's talk about why kids are not going to class. Your vision says that you want rigor for all.

Is there rigor happening in every classroom right now? 

And they said no. And so I said, well why don't we double down on rigor for all and see what happens to the kids in the hallway. And we did. And guess what? Kids start going to class. I started noticing as I was walking through the school, the first thing I noticed was that there was far less trash in the hallways. And I commented to the principal, he says, yeah, we don't have as many kids skipping class cause they actually want to be in class now because of teachers are actually teaching. You see, they were spending all of their energy investing in, you know, security at increasing the number of patrols and having teachers spend their planning period in the hallways to keep kids out the hall and chasing kids down and changing their discipline policy and doing all these things that keep kids alcohol.

When that wasn't even the root problem. The root problem was that the kids were in the hallway because there wasn't good instruction happening in our classroom when we dealt with the root cause. Even though this felt like a bigger issue, that issue got taken care of. So what builders do when we're trying to figure out what we see, something that's happening, we're trying to figure out what the problem is, what the root causes we our root cause analysis is not some prescripted, you know, kind of program or the five why's or that sort of thing. Those are great tools. They are just not as powerful as starting with your core values, your vision and your mission.

So here's how we teach you to do this at builder's lab. 

We started out with your core values, vision and mission. And if you don't have one, what we do, a builder's lab is you get pre-work to help you develop it by the time you get to builder's lab. So you get training and support even before you come to builder's lab so that you can have at least the building blocks of a core value set of core values, vision and mission. And if you don't have it all completed, that's fine. Bring what you have. And then we build on that at builder's lab. So you know, the first day we're kind of working on your core values, vision and mission, and really getting you something, helping you develop something that you can actually get excited about. And then from there we say, okay, now let's look at your school data. And if you think that's boring, then you have never done it the builder's way. Because when you're looking at data, now you're looking to figure out three things. Are we living out our core values? What does the data tell us about that? Are we making progress towards our vision for 100% of our students?

And what does our data tell us about that? And then is the work that we are currently doing on mission or off mission. And invariably during that data analysis, people will see we're working over here, but our mission is over here, so this work is off mission. No wonder we're not satisfied with this. Or they'll see we're not making progress towards our vision. So we're focusing on this other problem over here when we really need to get back to the core work that we say that is important to move us towards our vision. Or they'll say, you know what? We're doing these policies because we're trying to solve a problem, but we're trying to solve a problem in a way that's taking us away from our core values and we need to get back to our core values. You see, if you anchor everything you do in your core values, your vision and your mission, then it's a lot easier to pinpoint where the root causes.

It's a lot easier to find a solution. 

And so what happens when people come to builder's lab is they start having those realizations, those Aha, and they say, our real issue is over here. The things that we're trying to accomplish in our school, we're buying programs, we're, you know, reconfiguring. We're doing all this extra work and everybody's all been out of shape about it. When in reality, the way we can accomplish this is pretty simple. So a lot of people leave builder's lab and they kill programs that they were about to start and they, they, they, they decide not to spend money that they were about to spend because they realize they don't actually need it. And then a lot of people leave builder's lab and they're saying, you know what? We didn't have an answer. We were scrambling and trying to figure this out.

Now we know why this is happening and now we know how to fix it. You see, if you really want to overcome initiative fatigue, you are going to have to take a step back and really understand the problem. The reason we have initiative fatigue is because rather than doing that work, we actually say up, here's a problem, here's a symptom, let me solve this symptom over here. Let me solve this symptom over here. Let me solve this symptom over here. And we never address the root cause. I call it micro slicing for school. So those of you who have been with me for awhile, you know I teach this thing called micro slicing where you can in five minutes go into a classroom and get to the root cause of a teacher's practice. And that when you give teachers feedback, you give them one thing, feedback where you have them focus on the one thing, the most important thing for their class right now that's gonna make the biggest difference in their practice.

It's powerful feedback. We teach it at builder's lab.

We also, you know, kind of teach it at some of our private workshops. And every time people do that, every time people micro slice a classroom, the it changes the game, not just in terms of those feedback conversations that they have with teachers. It changes the game in terms of teachers' practice and what makes micro slicing so powerful is the one thing. Feedback. Giving teachers one thing to focus on at a time and making sure that that one thing is the root cause or the same thing as you with your entire school, you need to micro slice your entire school. You need to sit down and figure out what is the one most important thing that we need to be working on right now that's gonna make the biggest difference for us, not just now, but in the longterm.

And when you do that, when you can identify the one thing that you need to be working on, that's what makes the biggest difference. Because then you go focus all of your energy and all your resources on that one thing. You remove that constraint and it opens things up for your school. It starts solving other problems that have been symptoms that had been annoying. And this what we do instead is we say, oh, I got annoying symptom over here. I need a solution for this and I need a solution for that. And before you know it, you'll end up with, you know, a Franken school where you are, okay, we're doing this and we're doing this and we're doing this and we're doing this. The schools that are the most successful are the schools that have focus.

The builders that are most successful are the ones who don't get distracted by every shiny object that comes out.

Instead, they have a singular focus on what their school needs right now and that's how you experience exponential results. So I want to invite you again to come to build his lab because that's what we do at builder's lab. That's how we support you. We help you weed through all of the noise and get to the root cause of what's going on in your school right now. And then we show you how you solve it, how you develop that singular focus, how you develop that discipline so that when you go back to your school, you have for the next 90 days a process for identifying and solving your biggest issue. And not only that, at the end of 90 days you, you look up and you're like, I can't believe we've accomplished so much. Our school looks different than it did 90 days ago. And that's the power of doing it.

When you focus all of your energy and attention on the right thing, the one thing that's gonna make the biggest difference. Not only do you avoid initiative fatigue, but you start to see exponential results happening very, very quickly. You don't have to wait two, three, four years to start seeing results. You start seeing results in a 90 day period. So think about this week. Think about all of the initiatives you have going on in your school. Are they working? Are they solving the problem? Pay attention to your staff. Are they already exhausted and school years just started? Are they already starting to feel a little cynical about the program that you've introduced? Are you having a hard time generating excitement about this new process and program? Maybe maybe your school is feeling a little bit of initiative fatigue. And if they're not feeling it right now, if they're still kind of riding on the high on the brand new school year, pay attention over the next few months.

Start to see if you notice initiative fatigue creeping in.

 And if you do know that there is a solution, there is an antidote to initiative fatigue and the antidote is to stop grabbing solutions. Take a good look at what you're doing, discover the root cause and then decide on one thing, figure out what is the most important thing that you should be doing right now and give yourself 90 days to just focus on that one thing. I promise you, if you do that, you are going to see amazing results. You're going to generate a lot of momentum. Everybody is going to be focused on doing the right work the right way and at the end of those 90 days you're going to look back and be like, wow, that's amazing. We've actually solved the problem. So resist being seduced by the latest program. Resist being kind of cajoled into grabbing five or six solutions and look for the root cause. When you do, that's how you overcome initiative fatigue like a builder.

Now before we go, just want to remind you one more time where you can get your ticket for builder's lab. 

So we have one coming up October seven through nine and it's going to be in Dallas, Texas and you can get your ticket for builder's lab at mindsteps INC com slash builders dash lab. You can also, if you're listening to this sometime in the future, that link is still going to be good. You can also go to that link and find out when the next builder's lab is going to be and then make sure that you grab your ticket. I would love to work with you in a in a more intimate space where you and I can really work together on your challenges and help you come up with a solution that's actually gonna make a difference and help you overcome initiative fatigue.

Now let's talk about next week. 

So next week we're going to shift. We've been looking at some of the basics of builder ship for the year. So we started out by kind of looking at vision, mission, and core values. That's kind of a foundation. And then we looked at how do you move your people? What do you need to do to get your people committed to your vision, mission, and core values? And then we talked a little bit last time about just what are those disciplines about moving people forward? And then we talked about how do you figure out what your pathway is and the way you figure out your pathways. You start out with what is the one thing we need to be working on? And now we're going to talk about how you develop a plan.

How do you actually start to achieve these results I've been telling you about? So next time we're going to talk about how you can get everyone in your school genuinely excited about the initiative that you finally end up with. How do you generate that excitement and that sense of urgency with people in a way that helps you move forward? So tune in next time where you're going to find out how do you generate true excitement and how do you do it? Like a builder.

I'll talk to you then.

Bye for now. See you next time. 

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