EPISODE #336

Hey, builders. Before we dive into today's episode, I wanna make sure you know about something really special happening next week, November 6th. You see, I'm hosting a brand new masterclass and it's called Supporting Struggling Students. And it's all about how you can help your teachers catch students before they fail, not afterwards. So we're gonna walk through a very simple tier one framework that you can start using right away to either fix what's broken in your own Tier 1 program or to make supports proactive rather than re. Now, if you are already a member of the 100% collective, you're gonna get access to the masterclass completely free. Just look for your email and you can even bring your own Tier 1 challenges to the masterclass and be eligible to win one of our live member tune ups.

But if you are not a member of the collective yet. Well, I've set aside just a handful of guest tickets for this masterclass. Now, we're gonna keep it intimate and small so that everybody gets real support. So these spots are going to go really, really fast. So. So if you want one of those guest tickets, you need to grab one before they're gone by going to buildershipuniversity.commasterclass. that's buildershipuniversity.com masterclass. Now, let's get into today's episode.

You're listening to the School Leadership Reimagined podcast, episode 336.

How do builders like us make a dramatic difference in the lives of our students in spite of all the obstacles we face? How do you keep your vision for your school from being held hostage by resistant teachers, uncooperative parents, ridiculous district policies, or a lack of time, money or resources? If you're facing those challenges right now, here is where you'll find the answers, strategies, and actionable tips you need to overcome any obstacle you face. You don't have to wait to make a difference in the lives of the people you serve. You can turn your school into a success story right now with the people and resources you are already have. Let's get started. Hey, builders. Welcome to another episode of the School Leadership Reimagined Podcast.

I'm your host, Robin Jackson, and today this episode is a little different from what we normally do. You see, every month inside of the 100% collective, we host something called the Collective Tuneup, and it's where members can enter to win a private coaching session with me. And what's fun is that no two tune ups are ever the same, because every builder comes in with a challenge that Looks simple on the surface, but always, always turns out to have some deeper truth underneath. And so I wanted to share one of those sessions with you today. It's something that I'm thinking about doing more on the podcast, giving you kind of a little behind the scenes look. And these tune ups are so good that, you know, I think more people should benefit from them. Now, if you are not in the collective, you are really gonna wanna lean in for this because what you're about to hear is the kind of conversation that happens behind the scenes every single month. And if you are in the but you haven't entered for a chance to win a tune up yet, well, this might nudge you to throw your name in for next time.

We're going to be doing these every single month. Now, here's why I wanted to bring this one to you today. Because this conversation is so rich and so powerful because it starts out talking about one problem, but then very quickly we realize that there's this other problem underneath. And even at the, even though the situation might not exactly be like yours, you're gonna hear yourself in the questions, you're gonna hear yourself in, in, in, in some of the insights that we're having. The aha. Moments that happen during this, this tune up. And that's because it's always good to have somebody to talk things through with. You know, a lot of times we are so close to our challenges that we can't see them.

You know, we, we, we only see what's in front of us. We don't understand what's underneath. And one of the things that I think really take away from this conversation is that the problem that you think you have is often not the problem that you really have. And it will help you to take whatever challenges you're dealing with right now and dig a little deeper. And so that's really the magic of these tune ups, right? They help you see what's hiding in plain sight. So whether you're wrestling with feedback or whether you're wrestling with getting teachers to do something that, that you really believe needs to happen in order for you to get to your 100% vision, whatever it is, right, I promise you this conversation is gonna shift how you think about the work.

So let's dive into my tuneup with Bill, and I'm sure you're gonna learn something.

All right, everybody, I'm here today with one of our builders. This is Bill Wietman. And, Bill, why don't you tell everybody where you are, Tell everybody a little bit about your school before we jump in.

So I'm located in Hermitown, Minnesota. So we are northern, northeastern tip right by Lake Superior. We are a 5, 8 middle school. We have about 680 students in our building and we live the life of.

Middle school every day, including today. You were just telling me before we started we hit record that it's, you know, there's a lot going on today. So thank you. I'm so excited that we were able to, you know, snag this time to talk. So Bill, tell us a little bit about the challenge that you're bringing to us today. What's, what's going on?

So we are looking at and having just a lot of conversations around interventions. And so like the model that we had previously was kind of a pull out model. And so as we're kind of looking and our state's kind of moving towards like more MTSs and identifying our students and then like our district itself is moving like away from interventions because of budget things. A lot more gets put on like the teacher and kind of that tier two intervention kind of work that they're doing. And so we're having a lot of conversations about that and it's, it's a change like, and so like a lot of like. And it's not pushback but it's just like not understanding. And so like we're having lots of feedback conversations about that. So, so yeah, that's kind of what we're working on I guess right now.

So tell me a little bit about these conversations. You go into the classroom, what are you seeing that's sparking these conversations?

A lot of our classrooms have veteran teachers who have like the way that they've kind of taught for 10, 15, sometimes 20 years. And I haven't had students that have needed those interventions. And so there's a lot of comments that are being made of well, this is the first time that I've ever had to do that like in my classroom. I've never had a student that needed that much help in my classroom. And so we're trying to work through like really focusing in on that kid and kind of our 100% vision of like what does that student need? Like what, what would need to happen in your classroom in order for that kid to successful. And like we're. Yeah, so we're, that's what we're really focusing in on.

And when I go into the classroom we see a lot of lecture type teaching. 

Our fifth and sixth grade are like feel like part of their job is preparing kids to like Sit and get like for seventh and eighth grade, and our seventh and eighth grade feel like they're really working in on like, the content a lot more so that they're preparing them for high school. And so we're really. Yeah, that's what we're working on next.

Okay, so I mean, what you're describing, I think principles can all relate to. Right. It's this idea that you see something in the classroom and it's concerning because you see that if it continues, it'll be a barrier to your 100% vision. And the challenge is that teachers have a different understanding of their role and a different understanding of what should and shouldn't happen in the classroom. So I talk about this a lot. I just talked about this on the October reset that we just did about. There's a contradictory story. The teachers are telling them one story, which is, this has always worked.

It's not working now. And that story is exacerbated by the fact that there are cuts. So resources that they've relied on in the past are no longer available. And then here you are coming in and saying, yeah, you're going to have to do more. And they're saying, what do you mean I have to do more support? I'm trying to get these kids ready for seventh and eighth grade, or I'm trying to get them ready for high school. So there's a story you're telling around the vision and share with everybody what your vision is.

So our vision is that 100% of our middle school students are prepared for their future by performing academically on grade level, being organized, and positively interacting with their peers.

Awesome. Okay. So you have that vision, and that vision came from you. Right? Like, you believe in that vision passionately. Your teachers have heard you tell your vision story and they have gotten on board and you've done the work, you've done some work around, you know, mission, you know, all those things. So they're on board, but they are still telling themselves a different story. So I think that there are three, possibly four things going on that may help you.

Okay. And so we always anchor in the vision first of all. So whenever there. There are contradictory stories, it's really important to go back to the vision because your lived experiences are very different. Right now. You're the principal trying to move the vision forward. They're the teachers dealing with all the things that they're dealing with in the classroom.

So if you try to recalibrate the story at the experiential level, you know, you're always going to lose.

Right. So where you have to meet, you. You always meet each other back at the vision, Right. So I think this is a really, really good opportunity for you to share that vision story again. And as you know, as a part of the vision story, we start with their experience. Right. So when you first shared the vision story, their experience was different, and now their experience has changed.

It's time to update your vision story to reflect their current reality so they can still see how the vision is relevant to their current reality. So that's always number one. We always anchor back in that vision, and we have to. We have to be a broken record with the vision story. And you did such a great job. I remember when you were doing your vision story at the beginning, and, you know, so I think it's time to revisit that.

That.

What do you think?

Yeah, I think that that's completely true. And I like, when I've been in places where, like, the. The heart of the teacher isn't necessarily in it, we have zero teachers in our building that, like, are not looking out for the best interest for kids. So, like, we. We have a huge advantage to be able to do that. And so, like, when we went through the vision story, like, we, we. And it was great. Like, that part was awesome.

We had a. Like, we got caught up a little bit, like, kind of in our core value pieces, but we didn't, like, we worked through that piece too. And so, yeah, I think you're right, like, cycling back to, like, that vision with a different set of reality, because we're two years past that. Like, when we first kind of introduced that. Yeah, I think that would be a good place to start.

Yeah. And it just gets everybody recentered. Right. I mean, you know, you mentioned something really important, which is you're not dealing with resistance. You know, there was reluctance, maybe, there's maybe confusion around, like, how do we handle this? But you're not dealing with resistance. And I think that that's an important thing to bring out because a lot of the advice that's out there is really about that resistant teacher. But what do you do about teachers who are committed to kids, but you are still seeing the problem differently.

Right. Like, you're saying this is the issue, and they're saying, I'm not sure about that because, you know, my experience is this. And so I believe this is the issue. And so whenever you have, you know, like, at the heart of it, before you can give them feedback, you got to go back to home base. You Got to go back to that story. Why are we here and what are we trying to do? Because you're giving them feedback based on that story because it's still alive for you. But there's another story that's creeped in for them, which is we don't have the same resources and the state.

And so what you have to do is step into the story they're telling themselves before they can hear your feedback. And I think that that's one of the things that a lot of feedback advice misses, because we don't. We're starting at the wrong place, right? Like, we need to start at the foundation, right. If we all don't agree on this, then my feedback is not going to make sense. And sometimes we're so busy giving feedback, we forget that until. Feedback is about ownership, right? It's about helping teachers take ownership over the problem and the solution gap, Right?

And if we give people feedback and we say, here's the gap, but we have an established home base. We. We're not starting from the same place. So we don't. We can't agree on a gap. They can't take ownership. Ownership over it, and then they can't move. So stories number one.

So I said there were what, three, maybe four things, okay?

So stories number one. The second thing is that I'm wondering if you have a feedback problem, Right? Because there seems to. I think, that everybody recognizes there is a gap, right? And the question is less about the gap and more about understanding the solution. And it sounds to me like when you're talking to teachers about intervention, you're talking to them about a new way of addressing a challenge that's happening in a classroom, one that is that they may not been. May not have been trained to do, one that they don't understand philosophically, one that they think is a reaction to a shortage of resources.

So it's hard for me to buy into a solution that looks like a band aid to me. Right. And so we may not have a feedback problem here. We may have a support problem, or we may have a culture problem, right? Not culture. Like, everybody's bitter and angry. You know, normally we talk about culture and we think of it as just toxic or not. I don't sense that there's toxicity here, but there's a.

There's a re. Or we have to rewrite the story and the habits that we've had around how we serve kids. And so let's dig a little deeper and figure out is this a support issue or is this a fundamental Issue of how we see intervention. Right. So let's explore both and then you can tell me which one you think it is. Okay. If it's a support issue, that's really about people feeling empowered to do the work. Right?

So you're asking them, you're, you're saying, hey, you've got kids who are struggling and in the past you've had a pull out model where, you know, you kind of, this kid is struggling and you hand that kid to an expert and that expert fixes the kid and then sends the kid back. Right? That's the model. And I know that I'm oversimplifying it, but that's, that's basically kind of how intervention has worked and it's worked for teachers. And I mean, I would argue it hasn't worked as well as we think it has because I think it's a, it's the wrong idea about intervention, period. But for, especially because your teachers have been veterans, that model has served them over the years, right? So they can focus on the kids and getting them ready for high school and getting them ready for seventh and eighth grade. And you know, everybody always threatens kids with the next level, right?

Like, you know, the elementary teacher's like, you're, they're not going to take this in middle school. You all getting, you know, so we're all kind of threatening kids with the next level. And that model has worked for years and now we're coming in with a new model and they, based on what you're telling me, it sounds like they think this new model isn't a better model, that this new model is all we have left because our resources are dried up. Would you agree or no? Yeah, yeah. 

I'm trying to wrap my mind a little bit around that. 

Like if that is the way that they're kind of thinking about it. Let me give you another alternative then. Okay, so are they seeing it that way or are they seeing it as you're asking me to do something that I don't know how to do? That's always been something that has been taken care of by somebody else and I don't have the skill set to deal with it. If I did, I wouldn't be referring them out to begin with, but I don't. And now you're asking me to do something that I don't know how to do.

Yeah, that's definitely, definitely it for sure.

Okay, so the reason I'm asking the question and posing it that way is I'm trying to determine whether or not this is an issue of support or an issue of culture. Right. So if they were buying the first story, which is, you know, this is. I don't agree with the model. The other model worked, but now you're asking me to do this other thing because we don't have the resources. That's a culture issue. Because they're telling that story is. Is.

Is keeping them from being meaningfully engaged in a work. Like, I'm not gonna even try because I don't believe we should be doing it. If it's a issue. If it's an issue of I have now to do something that I'm not comfortable or confident doing, then it's a support issue because they really need to be empowered to approach intervention this way. So do you see what I just did there? It's always feedback, support, accountability, or culture. Whenever teachers aren't moving, it's always one of them. So are they taking ownership?

Sounds like they kind of are. Like, we see there's an issue, but. But the issue is really sounds like they're saying, we agree something needs to be done, but you're asking us to do something that we are comfortable or confident or even feel like we are capable of doing at this point. So you're nodding. So that sounds like that's where it is now. Do you see how I figured that out? That's where we always go. Whenever there's a challenge with teachers, is it an issue of, you know, they don't own the problem, they don't feel empowered to solve the problem, they don't have the systems set to solve the problem, or they don't agree about the source of the problem.

Like it's.

It's always going to be one of those four things. 

And if you understand that, then you understand what. What the solution is going to be. And so it sounds like it's less of a feedback issue at this point, like you've given them the feedback, and now it's more of a support issue and giving them the skills to be able to do that.

Makes sense.

Okay, all right, so that's two. All right, so now that we know that it's a support issue, how do we solve it? Right. And I'm going to recommend two things. The first thing is that I think that I'm going to get in trouble for saying this. Right? Like, I said this privately in office hours the other day to someone else, and I'm now saying it publicly, so everybody's going to hear, but you might as well. I mean, I'm talking about this.

This Month. You know, one of the things we're going to be inside of BU and the collective this month, because this issue is coming up a lot where teachers are starting to see kids struggling and they're scrambling to figure out how to support kids is that we're going to. The collective topic for November is going to be around supporting struggling students and how builders do it. So you get a preview of that. But one of the big fundamental shifts that builders make around support is that support shifts from being reactive to being proactive. So the challenge that I have with, like, a lot of the work people have been doing around mtss, I don't, okay, this is the part that gets me in trouble, right? And then tier one and tier two instruction is that they are reactive. We see data, we see kids are struggling, we respond.

And that puts us in a more. We're starting from behind, and we're scrambling to catch up. So there's a different level of pressure there. And what builders do is we're saying, listen, we know kids are going to struggle, right? Learning involves struggle. What we want to know and want to ensure is that kids are struggling productively, not destructively. And so we need to be proactive.

We need to spend our energy setting kids up for success.

So that fewer kids struggle to begin with, and the struggle stays productive. If a child starts to slip into destructive struggle, we need to have supports in place already and red flags that signal the moment a child goes from productive to destructive struggle so that we can intervene early and get them back in a productive struggle before it's too late, before they've given up, before it feels harder, before they're further behind. And so I think that. But if we, in your case, if the first step for support is helping teachers see support differently because they have been trained for years now to see support as something that is reactive. A kid struggles, then I come up with interventions. And the reason they feel ill equipped to provide interventions is because by the time they have been trained to notice struggle, it's profound. It's not a little struggle where we can do something quick and get them back on track. It means stopping everything, working with them after school.

You know, like, there's. So intervention becomes so much heavier because we waited too long to intervene. And if we intervened earlier, then we could. The intervention feels like a lighter lift. And so I think the first step in helping teachers, your teachers wrap their heads around intervention is reframe intervention. This is not your mother's intervention. This is not the intervention that we used to Do. And the reason that they often feel like I have to refer them out is because the lift feels too heavy to do in the classroom on top of everything else.

So the more that we shift that lift for teachers, the more likely they are to feel capable and confident of taking it up so far. Are you still with me?

Yeah. 100.

Okay. Do you have any reaction so far or anything? Like, you know, like, what are you thinking?

Yeah. So we, like, our state requires. I don't even actually know what the acronym stands for, but a thesis program that we, like, post on our website. And, like, that's kind of what I've fell back on. But when we look at ours, it's like a piece of paper that lives on the website. And so, like, we've been trying to dig into that, to try to build those pieces that, like, do have that support. And where we've kind of gotten stuck is, like, how everything kind of wraps together. And so we're.

We're now, like, we get to, like, step two on the thesis. But then we're like, what we're really looking at is instructional strategies. And so, like, we're like, all those things, like, they're. They're intertwined that we, like, that's kind of where our conversation has, like, started to move to. So I would say that that's exactly where we're at is like, what, What. Like, what does it need to look like in a classroom in order to, like, feel like we're helping? Like, because you're right, we're identifying the one kid or two kids that, like, are, like, severe struggle. But, like, what we're missing is, like, that middle group of kids that, like, may be struggling on, like, this particular topic.

And how do we catch those kids before they become the kid that shows up on everybody's radar? 

So I think we're exactly working on that. So. Yeah, I'm with you.

Okay. So, you know, as you were talking, I was just thinking, as a profession, we have made support so complicated that it's almost impossible for teachers to deliver support. Because, you know, like, I was talking to somebody the other day, and teachers are sitting there like, okay, is this a tier one issue or is this a tier two issue? Well, I can't do that until they get to tier, like, it's so much. It's so complicated that we haven't. That we've made support onerous on teachers when it should feel automatic. It should be so built into what teachers do that support doesn't feel like its own separate curriculum. I think that that's what we've turned it into.

So now I have to teach math. Right. And get kids ready for high school. And I also have another shadow curriculum that's just support and differentiation. And it doesn't have to be that way. We've overcomplicated it. So I would suggest that we got to find ways to simplify support for teachers and model. The second thing I was going to say is that then we need to model the support for teachers that we expect teachers to give to kids.

This is, to me, a ninja move, because the way we support teachers reinforces bad support habits for kids. Right. So what do we do to support teachers? Oh, you're struggling with supporting kids, so let's give you some remedial work where you have to completely relearn how to teach in order to be successful in the classroom. And teachers resist that. And then we do the same thing with kids. You're struggling in this area. So let's put you.

Let's pull you out, let's give you all this remedial work. And so now I feel like I'm even further behind. Right. So I think it. The. The way forward is to start with modeling. We know this is a support issue. Let's model.

Let's plan support for teachers in the way we expect them to plan support for kids, and let's be transparent about that. I want you to experience getting this kind of support and how different it is from the way that you've typically been supported in this area. And as you experience it, you can see why we are asking you to support your kids this way. Now, I know you've got probably a million questions about, so how do we do that? Right. And that's bigger than what we can do in this session. I will tell you that that's what we're doing in the collective all November. I'll give you the whole program, right?

So if you show up for those sessions, you know, we. You'll get. You'll have everything you need to be able to do this with your teachers. So you don't have to worry about that part. But does it. Do you agree that, like, with the two steps, we got to redefine support and then we have to model it for teachers so that they know the benefits of it. And then. Because the thing is, if we just give them the program, they go through the motions.

Right. But not with the heart. And it feels onerous on top of everything else they're doing. Plus, we're doing it, like, in the middle of the school year when everything else is going on. If our support felt supportive and they experienced it this way, and then we also show them how much easier it is to do it this way for their students, then if you were relieving pressure that I know your teachers feel as well, like, they're not unaware that kids are struggling. They're not unaware that they need better intervention. They don't disagree with your feedback. They disagree with your estimate of their ability to figure this out on their own.

Yeah, totally makes sense.

All right. Do you have any last thoughts or questions?

I don't think so. I always appreciate visiting with you and jumping in when I can have the office hours and all the stuff, so.

Well, I'm glad that we got a chance to chat today. Do you do. Does it. Do you feel better, or did I just make things more complicated for you?

Not more complicated. There's. It's kind of. There's always going to be work, but we're making sure that we're doing the good work. So it feels. It feels better in that it's going to be good work. So. Giving a little bit of a direction.

So.

All right, so right now you have the direction, and we'll get you the tools. So that way you're not. Because, listen, I got to model the support for you, right? So I can't just be like, yeah, go ahead and figure that out. So now you know the direction. Go forth and send no more. I can't do that to you. Right.

So I'm going to make sure that you get the tools as well. So it will. I find this way easier than. You know, you just described all the complicated stuff you've been trying to go through and the hoops you've been going through. I think that for now, between now and then, if you spend time getting people back into the vision story, like that first step we talked about, they'll be ready for it. And then it buys you time to do the work in the back end so that when you roll this out, it goes smoothly.

Perfect. Well, we can do that part.

Yes.

I'm excited about that part.

Yeah. So let's do that. And then the rest of the stuff you'll get over the next few weeks. And once you see it and see just how easily it's mapped out for you, I think you're going to be fine. It'll be good. So focus on your visa story for now, and then the next few weeks, we'll deal with the support. But now you understand the shift that we're making. So it's not about creating another document.

It's not about, you know, refining the plan that's already too complicated to begin with. It's really about simplifying. Let's get to the heart of what really matters and give the teacher support they need. And then my, you know, as a builder, we always talk about those 90 day kind of rolling cycles. So this is something that you'll do like in a 90 day sprint. And that way you. That gives you. It doesn't.

It's not some gift to have instantly tomorrow. It's something that you'll build over the 90 days and you'll have results at the end of that 90 days that you can look at and say, all right, I see a tangible change in instruction.

Love it.

All right, thanks, Bill. Oh, my goodness. Wasn't that so powerful? I mean, that's what I love about these tune ups, is how often a single conversation can unlock something that will change everything. And not just change everything for the school that's being featured in the tuneup, but for everybody listening. And so that's exactly what we do inside of the 100% collective every single month. We take real challenges, the kind that keep you up at night, and we work through them until they make sense and more importantly, until they start working. And you know, what struck me about this conversation with Bill was how often we look at a problem, like in his case, a feedback problem, and we think that there's just kind of a simple solution, like, oh, I just need to get better feedback.

And really what's happening is there's something deeper going on. There's a system problem, or in Bill's case, there's an issue around the story that the school is telling right now and around the kind of support teachers are getting. And that's what makes these conversations so powerful. That's what makes thinking like a builder so powerful, is that rather than wasting your time batting away at symptoms, you get to the root cause and you solve it. And frankly, that's the perfect setup for what we're going to be doing this month inside of the collective. So next week we're going to be diving into a brand new masterclass, and it's all about how to support struggling students. Because frankly, most schools don't actually have a feedback problem or an intervention problem. They have a real tier one problem.

And most schools know they have a tier one problem, but they don't know how to fix it. 

Well, in this masterclass, I'm going to be showing you how to catch students before they Fail by building a tier one system that prevents struggle instead of reacting to struggle. So by the end of the session, you're going to walk away with a clear step by step plan to strengthen Tier one instruction. And you're going to make sure that fewer and fewer students are being referred to Tier 2 because teachers are handling struggle inside the classroom. So you've got tier Tier one issues or tier one's not working and you're just drowning in struggling students at this point in the year. This masterclass is gonna fix that for you. And we're gonna give you something very simple that you can roll out with your teachers the next day and immediately start seeing results. So if you're a member of the collective, you're gonna get the masterclass for free.

Plus you're also gonna get a chance to bring your own Tier one challenges to a live tune up and get direct coaching from me. Kind of like the session you just heard with Bill. If you are not in the collective yet, well, this is your invitation. You know, we're going to keep the masterclass small so that every member can get the support that they need. But you can also, we're going to make a few guest tickets available. And so all you need to do if you want one of those guest tickets is go to buildershipuniversity.com masterclass and if there are tickets available, you will see it. If not, it'll be closed and all the tickets are gone. But this will give you a chance to see what it feels like to be inside the collective and to get that practical, easy to use done for you.

Tools, you know, everything you need to be able to solve the challenges that you're facing day to day in your school. So make sure you grab one of those tickets if you want to join us collective members, BU members, Look for an email about next month's masterclass. And that's it for this week. So if we can take away one thing from that conversation with Bill, let's remember this, that a lot of times the thing we think is a challenge isn't really what's going on. There's something else going on underneath. And if we take time to really examine that challenge, interrogate that challenge and get to the root cause, we don't have to keep dealing with the same problems over and over and over again. We can solve those problems once and for all. Like a builder.

I'll talk to you next time. Hey, if you're ready to get started being a builder right away, then I want to invite you to join us at Buildership University. It's our exclusive online community for builders just like you, where you'll be able to get the exact training that you need to turn your school into a success story right now, with the people and resources you already have. Inside, you'll find our best online courses, live trainings with me, tons of resources, templates and exemplars, and monthly live office hours with me where you can ask me anything and get my help on whatever challenge you're facing right now. If you're tired of hitting obstacle after obstacle and you're sick of tiny little incremental gains each year, if you're ready to make a dramatic difference in your school right now, then you need to join Buildership University. Just go to buildershipuniversity.com and get started writing your school success story today. Hey, it's Robin here and I want to thank you for listening to today's episode. Now, if you have a question about today's episode or you just want to keep the conversation going, did you know that we had a school School Leadership Reimagined Facebook group?

All you need to do is go to Facebook, join the School Leadership Reimagined Facebook group. Now, there are going to be a couple of questions that we ask at the beginning because we want to protect this group and make sure that we don't have any trolls come in and that it really is for people who are principals, assistant principals, district administrators. So make sure you answer those questions or you won't get in. But then we can keep the conversation going. Plus, we do a lot of great bonus content. I'm in there every single weekday. So if you have a question or comment about the episode, let's continue the conversation. Joel, join us at the School Leadership Reimagined Facebook group and I'll talk to you next time.